200 Year Old Controversy Settled

Road King said:
OK here they are, but the OP kind of got off track wrt the curve of the barrels of some of these pistols.

DSC02979.jpg


Anyone else out there got a brace of these? :)
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Very nice. French made by the look of them and usually described as target pistols in auction catalogues, but there are so many of these French cased pairs that target shooting must have been a very popular hobby in 18th and 19th century France, or else they were being bought for something other than target shooting!

I've always liked the French-fitted cases.
 
Yes these pistols are French, made by F.P. Devisme of Paris. Some considered these target pistols when Duelling was banned, but like you say who knows what they were used for. Duels were still reported late into 1800s.


The last duel to be fought in New Brunswick was in 1858 at Fredericton. It was fought between William Odell and Lieutenant Jones. Although there is no record of why the duel was fought it was William Odell who insisted on settling a private matter of honor with a duel. Neither man was harmed during the duel and it was the power of the church that ultimately put a stop to duels.

After the duel between Odell and Jones Bishop John Medley excommunicated Odell in front of all the parishioners in Christ Church Cathedral. Odell stood his ground and refused to apologize in public. Despite the actions of Bishop Medley, William Odell remained a popular public figure and was appointed to the Canadian Senate in 1867.

Bishop Medley's act of excommunication lead to a strong public outcry against duels and as a result none were ever fought again in New Brunswick.


A duel is a formal armed combat between 2 people in the presence of witnesses, to settle differences or a point of honour. Duels were recorded in NEW FRANCE as early as 1646; the last known duel in what is now Canada occurred in 1873 at St John's, Nfld (a hilarious shoot-out for which the seconds had loaded the pistols with blanks). Duels in the French regime were fought exclusively with swords; after the Conquest almost all were with pistols. Most incidents ended without injury, but there were some fatal encounters: at least 9 died in New France, 2 in Lower Canada, 5 in Upper Canada, 2 each in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and 1 in Newfoundland.

The last fatal duel occurred 22 May 1838 at VERDUN, Lower Canada, when lawyer Robert Sweeny shot and killed Major Henry Warde, who had sent a love letter to Mrs Sweeny. The last fatal duel in Upper Canada [Ontario] took place in Perth 13 June 1833. Defending his honour, John Wilson shot and killed Robert Lyon, who had called him a liar and assaulted him. Wilson and his second were charged with murder, but were acquitted.
Several famous Canadians fought duels: James DOUGLAS duelled at Île-à-la-Crosse, Saskatchewan in 1820 during a fur trade dispute; Joseph HOWE fought in 1840 to prove his courage and gain the opportunity to decline further challenges; George-Étienne CARTIER duelled in 1848 to refute accusations of cowardice 11 years earlier at the Battle of ST-DENIS; and in 1849 John A. MACDONALD had to be prevented from fighting a political opponent.

Duels were fought in a variety of places: in locked rooms, in open fields or across tables. Causes also varied, and were often trivial. In 1800 at York [Toronto], John Small shot and killed John White after the latter spread gossip that Mrs Small was the former mistress of an English lord. A quarrel over card-game winnings led to a fatal duel in St John's, Nfld, in March 1826. Sharp political disputes in Lower Canada resulted in a spate of challenges and meetings between 1834-37.

Authorities considered duelling a crime, and to kill in a duel was tantamount to murder. However, the laws were irregularly enforced. In New France, several duellists were imprisoned, banished or executed; even the bodies of men killed in duels were desecrated. Under English rule, juries consistently refused to convict duellists if they felt that the encounters had somehow been conducted fairly and honourably.
 
Interesting info! Women duelled on occasion as well. There is an illustration in a book I have of a duel in 1868 between two "horizontals" (ladies of easy virtue) "over the heart and purse of a rich young man of Bordeaux." Two shots at twenty paces. One of the "ladies" was hit in the thigh at the first exhange of shots. "The victor shortly afterwards retired and married." Retired from her profession that is. ;)
 
Thanks Road King for a memorable thread, it is interesting to find out a bit of history behind the fabulous antiques that have endured the passage of time.
 
curved bore and accuracy

Returning to one aspect of the original post, there is one way that the down-curved barrel MIGHT have improved accuracy in the absence of rifling. I recall reading an extract of an 18th century ballistics treatise, possibly by Robins, in which the author discussed the spin induced on a bare ball from contact with the side of the bore, and how it appeared in his trials that the orientation of the spin from the last contact with the bore was random in direction, and thus also the curve induced by that spin, enlarging the dispersion of the shots. He then related that some of the better gunmakers would counter this by giving the muzzle of a "gun" intended primarily for ball a downward bend just sufficient to ensure that the last contact of the ball with the bore would be at the top, giving the ball a consistently-oriented backspin. This produced two salutary effects: the spin, and thus the induced curve, was now consistently oriented, and that curve was in the upward direction, producing a flatter trajectory than would otherwise have been the case. It seems possible at face value that the curved bore of these pistols might produce a similar effect.

Regards,
Joel
 
I would have thought that the upturned barrel would have served to put the bullet closer to where the sights were aiming. I hadn't considered the backspin issue at all.

What we NEED right now is some serious testing of the guns in a properly-equipped laboratory, get to the bottom of the issue once and for all.

BTW, if you haven't seen it, be sure to rent "Onegin". Yes, it's Pushkin-in-a-movie but very well made. The duelling sequence is superb. I want the pistols!
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joelvca said:
Returning to one aspect of the original post, there is one way that the down-curved barrel MIGHT have improved accuracy in the absence of rifling. I recall reading an extract of an 18th century ballistics treatise, possibly by Robins, in which the author discussed the spin induced on a bare ball from contact with the side of the bore, and how it appeared in his trials that the orientation of the spin from the last contact with the bore was random in direction, and thus also the curve induced by that spin, enlarging the dispersion of the shots. He then related that some of the better gunmakers would counter this by giving the muzzle of a "gun" intended primarily for ball a downward bend just sufficient to ensure that the last contact of the ball with the bore would be at the top, giving the ball a consistently-oriented backspin. This produced two salutary effects: the spin, and thus the induced curve, was now consistently oriented, and that curve was in the upward direction, producing a flatter trajectory than would otherwise have been the case. It seems possible at face value that the curved bore of these pistols might produce a similar effect.

Regards,
Joel
Click to expand...

this phenomenon is described in physics as the Magnus Effect. it is what makes a curve ball curve. Tippman has a patent on this bent barrel technology for paintball they call it a flatline barrel and it works, it reduces trajectory by a very noticable amount.
 
Way far off here, but I have to agree with the back spin for flatter trajectory. I have a little plastic sig 230 airsoft pistol I got in a christmas stocking years ago that I use for shooting bugs, etc. Works pretty well.

It puts a huge backspin on the bb and it increases the range a lot.. The pellet comes out and then starts climbing for about 100 feet till it just runs out of gas.. I'm positive that it shoots "flatter" than it would if it just flew out randomly.
 
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