2015 SAVAGE Model 10 feeding/chambering issue

Mr. Jeffery

Mr. Jeffery

Regular
EE Expired
Rating - 100%
10   0   0
Location
Union Bay Vancouver Island BC
Hello Gentlemen,
Last year I went out and bought myself a Savage model 10 (police special) heavy barrel .308. It looks good on the outside. Brand new from Delselins in Vernon BC.. Great company to deal with.. Thanks for Everything Del! (hope that plug wasn't out of line. They deserve it)

Anyway, In the years time Ive owned this firearm, I have had it out 3x and discharged about 110 rounds total. My last trip was to a range. I benched the rifle and as I was shooting I discovered that I was not able to easily extract/eject a live round. The bolt is/was sticky and almost needed to be tapped with a hammer to extract that particular live round. If I discharged that round instead.. gun goes bang! the bullet heads out to the target and the bolt pulls back easily to chamber the next round which in turn chambers easily but will not eject before being fired. I am perplexed. I should also mention that the bolt handle will go up and down but thats it. I really have to yank to get it to slide rearward.. not safe in the least.

Also, This rifle being brand new practically, I have been thinking of reloading my own. (which i understand will void any sort of warranty. I have not yet done so) I have not fired any wildcats from it, but a necked down once fired (from this gun)cartridge from Winchester will chamber and eject with little issue. Cartridge only. No bullet seated. A resized PMC cartridge on the other hand will not chamber completely and the bolt jams very tightly with very little force applied to it when reloading the chamber. (bullet seated or not, it jams tight)

I have measured both cartridges and I come up with negligible difference in dimensions... ( I will measure twice -if you get my drift)
Also a PMC cartridge which is new 'n' fresh out of the box, chambered, cocked, and discharged and then ejected does so happily with little resistance.

I am suspecting two things... but I will not share those possibilities as I am not a gunsmith...

Oh.. and Ive called Savage... twice now... over a 4 day period with no reply...Either they have far better things to do than address this safety issue or Andrea is on holidays or.... there are many many guns out there with issues and I am in queue... Who knows.. What ever happened to quality control? especially with a firearm?!? Im not in a happy place. Any help or suggestions are greatly appreciated... Thanks muchly.
 
Sound to me like your brass needs to have the shoulder bumped back to chamber easily. When neck sizing or using collet dies you will eventually need to FL size your brass. Be sure to adjust your die to just allow for easy chambering, with a little noticeable resistance when you push down your bolt handle. This ensures you are not oversizing your brass.
This is a slow trial and error process. Adjust your die to touch the shell holder with the ram fully set. then slowly turn in the die (1/8 max at a time) and size your brass. Test chamber until the brass allows easy chambering. Reloading is a learning process.
Elky...
 
Nice assessment....you figure he should bump the shoulders on factory ammo? The advice here some days, wow!

What ammo did you start with that worked fine and what ammo is not extracting? It sounds like the ogive of the bullet is jamming the rifling hard, when you do get one extracted is the bullet engraved by rifling? Do you have any measuring tools...caliper at least?
 
Doh...my bad. Some items which the op stated led me wrong, regardless, if factory ammo doesn't chamber something is up. And would be interesting to hear if other brands from PMC have the same issue. Could be a bad batch of low grade ammo if say win or rem ammo feeds fine.

Be sure to check for a clean chamber, clean brass and such because after 110 rounds what changed to cause this to happen. I would doubt it is the firearm first scenario.

If headspace was set too tight, you can identify with some go no go gauges if a local has some. Sgt, any suggestions.
On my bench this is a quick 15 min fix to reset headspace if you still have an old style barrel nut if that is the issue.

I would suggest a close look at the fired brass for any irregularities. If you see a tell tale ring on the brass there could be burr from chamber cutting. That could cause hard extraction or chambering. And that would be a send back option for sure.

When you stated that Win sized brass fits I have some questions. I have experienced differences when I load Win brass and then my die adjustment changes when I run lapua brass. So your PMC may be thicker. Way to many variables to manage but change one variable and you start again. If your die does not size to allow to fit the chamber there may be other issues like headspace.

Another item which may be an easy measure is the neck diameter before and after firing your ammo. Can you place a fired case over a bullet without it grabbing the bullet. These tests are quick areas to rule out things. If you are seeing any rub marks on the brass/bullet you can manage to eject without firing, that is where your issues are.

Rule out the easy stuff first. MY 2c
 
Last edited:
Thank you Gentlemen,

I am thinking head space also.. but..... please read on.

Elky, before neck = 0.334 +/- 0.0015. This is solid and repeatable on factory ammo. After = 0.343 +/- 0.002 this is also consistent and as I see, is within tolerance. I am using a Wilson die. This resizes the neck only and I am resizing to an OD of 0.333. I believe that this is irrelevant to issue at hand but I will listen to and consider all thoughts and as well any suggestions and/or ideas.

I am tempted to purchase a go no go set and the wrench but that's another 100 bucks from brownells... not into that just yet.

The Win brass seems harder than PMC. My finished edges are much smoother on the PMC than they are on Win brass. Cases are finished to 2.0035 +/-0.002

Forgot to mention... as i look at the (once fired) brass casings that I have extracted/ejected, the PMC case has a rough spot/scratch in one spot on the lower shoulder. not sure where or how this scratch is created, be it from the chamber or the rcvr on the eject... There are spots on it that look like a linear scratch about 0.030" to 0.100" long. Not all cartridges jam or scratch. Only PMC cartridges... so far. ( as spent ones are concerned) WinSuper X cartridges chamber and eject easily FC also ride smooth and eject.

This only refers to spent cartridges. New, unfired, off the shelf ammo from these above mentioned manufacturers all chamber easily, fires and ejects easily. BUT if I try to eject an unfired round.. thats where the trouble lay. I cannot forcibly pull the bolt back to expose the bullet lying in the receiver. I hope I am making sense. Im a bit frustrated. Lots of fbs lately.

I will fab a dummy round to max length and see if there are rifling marks about the perimeter of the ogive. I did not see any on factory ammo but I wasnt paying attention at that time either.. The 180 grain bullet I dummied into a PMC cartrige also did not show signs of sitting on the lands.. it looks nice 'n' shiny and waiting to fly.. anyway.

Just got off the phone with Savage.... ~sigh~ now I have to ship my shiny new flat black criminal killer clear across the country.... I am waiting on the box and return shipping. Thanks Savage. I appreciate the gesture and service. I dont appreciate that a BRAND NEW item needs to be repaired or adjusted. That all should have been done factory side b4 it left the building.. Musta been a friday or monday build.... off to Grech Outdoors it goes i guess.

as for measuring up.. What should I be measuring? I have a set of verynears on hand as well as a mike. 0-1 to 0-4.

Thanks guys.. I really appreciate your chiming in.

Before the gun goes away I willl spend a few more bucks on factory loads and see if I can repeat this issue.
On the day, i was discharging WinsuprX 150PSP. temp out side was -4C , dry, and the rifle had been cycled maybe a dozen times before I discovered that I could not eject a live round. if any of that matters. cheers!
 
Last edited:
Can you measure case headspace?

You indicate that factory ammo will chamber with ease, fire and extract with ease... BUT the same ammo will not extract if NOT fired?

compare the headspace length of the unfired and fired case.. let us know what you find.

Will the fired case chamber and extract easily?

Jerry
 
Wow, this is weird.

FWIW, I have noticed when extracting brass on a savage that the brass can rub against the receiver and could cause those linear marks. If you can post pictures of the brass they are worth a thousand words.

IME the bullet will not hold on that tight to not allow extraction. If the bullet jams and stays in the rifling you will know the OAL is too long. It may be hard to extract at that point on factory loads especially with crimped bullets. Factory rounds with standard COAL then I doubt it is the bullet set too deep. But you never know, it may have a short throat so rule out jamming bullets.

The only time I have noticed hard extraction on an unfired load you describe is where the neck of the brass is grabbing on a tight chamber. You can feel this when chambering too so not sure if you are feeling that in your scenario. First measure the dimension of a fired round. Ie a fired round could be be 0.336 outside diameter. A normal spring back factor of 0.002 and your chamber neck diameter is 0.338. Your factory round should be 0.332 or so depending on the thickness of the brass. If your factory ammo is approaching the fired brass diameter or more....bingo. If there is any residue, carbon build up in the chamber neck, or detritus....you have a jamming round. The round will fire, and pressures will be very high, and you will repeat. The answer...is toss the loads and use ones that don't grab.

When reloading, you will need to pay attention to neck thickness and your cure is turning necks to fit. If it were me, this is not a return to me at this time. You have already stated the answer....start reloading. And IMO, toss the PMC to the side and stick with Win brass. My 2c.
 
Hi Jerry, thanks for your reply.

I will state that new unfired factory rounds will chamber and can be discharged and then the spent case can also be ejected. easily , regardless of manufacturer. Some have not been able to be ejected once chambered but unfired. I noticed this on WinsuprX and I must go out once more to confirm this as repeatable fact on this as well as other brands of stock ammo.
How do you propose I address measuring headspace? I did a micky mouse measure but it showed me nothing tangible.

Some brands cannot be chambered once they have been fired and the neck resized to 0.333" even though they slid out of the chamber easily at the time of discharge.. I really dont get that.. and I am perplexed. (personally i think neck size is irrelevant as only some -PMC , cannot be chambered)

Elky. I will provide images. Please allow me some time. The forum format here i suspect it similar to all other forums but as you can see my post count is rather low.. Im what youd call a "gunoob" (like a gazoo but different!) Photos to follow.

I was very interested in what you had to say I will have to reread as some of the things you mentioned are visible. especially blow back marks around the neck/throat of the cartidge. Not on all but on some.

As I try to keep my facts straight, I think that I will have to start from scratch. PMC cartridges are going to the scrap pile for sure.. I am going to make up some light load 180's and also purchase a box or two of factory bullets. Lets see where that takes us.

Elky, I have BL-C(2) on hand. and some 4320. Would you happen to have a good start point for a hornady 180gr. SST? Im thinking about 41 gr of BL-C(2) but i dont want to guess. and the info I have on hand is questionable. So.. nothing is going down the pipe until I can find a starting point. I dont need accuracy or precision just yet.. Gotta figure out this FBS first..

Thanks again for all the contributions every one.
 
Last edited:
Some questions and a suggestion.

Questions: I am having a really hard time following what works and what does not.

1. I gather the loaded rounds are all factory?
2. You have used two types PMC and Winchester? Nothing else?
3. Are they both hard to extract when not fired?
4. How did you get up to 110 rounds fired? Did this extraction of live rounds just start now? Or, did you just notice it now?
5. Are you saying the fired but unsized PMC case chambers and extracts OK, but after you size it, then it does not?

My suggestion:

Use a black marker and "paint" the whole shoulder area, part way down the case, the neck, and the complete bullet. Chamber it, and as smoothly and carefully as you can, extract it and look for where it is binding. Once it starts to move back hold your finger on the side of the case so it limits dragging on the way out. Repeat with both brands. Then repeat again with the fired cases to see if there is any similarity.

And, if I had to make a WAG on this, I think there is a possibility your chamber dimension to the end of the neck may be shorter than standard specification. You should be able to see that with the black marker test described above.
 
thanks will do...
I dunno why i didn't think of that... geeez...!

I'll have some images in a day or two. Im going to step out to the range again.
Just going to discharge some factory stuff. I dont want to take the chance of compromising any warranty if i can help it.
 
Sorry abut that. I am not trying to confuse.....
Ron AKA said:
1. I gather the loaded rounds are all factory? YES
2. You have used two types PMC and Winchester? Nothing else? I have used Winchester, Winchester sprX and FC (so far)
3. Are they both hard to extract when not fired? So far, I only noticed the difficult extraction/eject an unfired winchstr sprX 150PSP rounds. I must go out again to confirm im not high on glue or the like and that this is fact. i will go ou tthe the range again shortly.
4. How did you get up to 110 rounds fired? Did this extraction of live rounds just start now? Or, did you just notice it now? I only noticed this "just now". In the past I had no need to extract an unfired round and a few days ago while at the range i did have to do so.. it was one of those " hey, this is kinda wierd" moments and when it repeated itself two more times, I tried to confirm an issue... and well.... here I am.
5. Are you saying the fired but unsized PMC case chambers and extracts OK, but after you size it, then it does not? No. I think ive just realized something... and I am embarrased... I found the PMC cartridges out on a back road... they had been discharged from another gun..They looked clean and shiny and undammged so I figured.... wtf.... Lesson learned. I really feel dumb about now. I apologize folks.. double face palm really red cheeked dumb.... so we dismiss anything PMC. The real issue is the inability to extract an unfired round.

my suggestion:

Use a black marker and "paint" the whole shoulder area, part way down the case, the neck, and the complete bullet. Chamber it, and as smoothly and carefully as you can, extract it and look for where it is binding. Once it starts to move back hold your finger on the side of the case so it limits dragging on the way out. Repeat with both brands. Then repeat again with the fired cases to see if there is any similarity.
Click to expand...

thank you I will try the ink test with a new unfired factory getup. I had mind to blue a cartridge but I dont have any bluing on hand. Sharpie is a good second best. again.. why didnt I think of that???
I apologize for the misleading dialogue. It only dawned on me when you mentioned PMC only. I found the five cartridges and well.. being a cheap a$$.... I forgot that no two gun chambers are alike. I suspect that the chamber in my rifle is tighter at the base of the cartridge. Thanks for the call out.
 
Last edited:
Mr. Jeffery said:
Hi Jerry, thanks for your reply.

I will state that new unfired factory rounds will chamber and can be discharged and then the spent case can also be ejected. easily , regardless of manufacturer. Some have not been able to be ejected once chambered but unfired. I noticed this on WinsuprX and I must go out once more to confirm this as repeatable fact on this as well as other brands of stock ammo.
How do you propose I address measuring headspace? I did a micky mouse measure but it showed me nothing tangible.

Some brands cannot be chambered once they have been fired and the neck resized to 0.333" even though they slid out of the chamber easily at the time of discharge.. I really dont get that.. and I am perplexed. (personally i think neck size is irrelevant as only some -PMC , cannot be chambered)

....
Click to expand...

Do tests at range and understand the risks.

Factory ammo that will chamber but cannot extract when NOT fired... chamber, try and extract... cartridge stays in chamber. With a cleaning rod, GENTLY push out the cartridge. Any marks, rubs or indications of being stuck?

If not, chamber again and repeat the test. Try with another 2 cartridges from this lot.. assume you get the same result. - chamber no problem but cannot extract and pushing out with a cleaning rod has no resistance.

Now fire these 3 rds and assume that they extract without any issue?

Take each case and run a line lengthwise... Chamber with line up.. will it chamber? yes/no... can it extract? yes/no

Rotate 90deg, redo

Rotate 90deg, redo

Rotate 90Deg, redo... keep track of whether it will chamber or not. If it does chamber, easy or hard and where was the marker line.

Put each fired case on a FLAT table.. mirror is ideal... with a unfired cartridge next to it. View tilt and difference in shoulder location.

Report back what you see and pictures would be good.

Is there ANY factory ammo where you can chamber AND extract the unfired cartridge?

Picture of the primer of the fired cartridges.

Jerry

PS for the fired cases that will not chamber again, try the marker test and chamber in 90deg increments and see if at some point, the case will chamber.
 
Thank you Jerry, I will attempt your test next time at the range. I am do for some recoil therapy so i can kill two birds with one stone so to say.

When i try to extract the unfired round. It is not left in the chamber whilst the bolt sldes back in the rcvr. Therefore I do not believe that I will need to push a rod down the bore. I believe that the trouble is with the bolt and the receiver... something is most likely binidng and not allowing the bolt to come back.

With some effort and coaxing, the bolt pulls back and flips the round out to the ground. Its catching on something and that is making it far more difficult than it should be. None the less, this whole situ is rather unnerving. Who knows what could happen if I find myself not being able to remove an unspent round. If for some reason I was at the field or out on the country side down some nasty bumpy road on my bike with the stick on my back. and this happens...??? how do I safely get her out of there... Not cool. Not in the least... Im going to go to the range in a the next couple of days. I will report back once I return.

You guys are awesome! thanks for so many great diagnostic approaches. More info and photos to come.
 
Elky,
The more I learn.... The less I know. aint it always the way? and heres me thinkin' I would be able to rummage in the brass bin at the range to get free refills!!

Im fairly new to the reloading game. Ive been shooting small bore for ever and ever. Big bore is a fairly new endevour for me.. its been a ton of fun so far -less the minor set backs and ridiculous costs of the mass produced items that make up the bulk of the shooters' needs.

I do have a long way to go to satisfy what I would consider to be a confident level of competency. :confused:
 
Last edited:
If it is possible the issue was there from day 1, and you have only noticed it now, because you have only tried to extract an unfired round now, then I am still on the guess of a chamber that is too short in the neck. The felt marker test and in particular around the brass at the end of the neck, should tell you if it is jamming at that location. There should be about 0.010" clearance from the end of the neck of the cartridge, to the end of the neck part of the chamber. It may be because the chamber was headspaced too tight, or because the chamber was reamed too short. However a reaming error would almost have to be a defective reamer. Seems unlikely. If it is just the headspace that is easy to correct on a Savage.

Testing it with a Go gauge would be very telling.
 
Mr. Jeffery said:
Thank you Jerry, I will attempt your test next time at the range. I am do for some recoil therapy so i can kill two birds with one stone so to say.

When i try to extract the unfired round. It is not left in the chamber whilst the bolt sldes back in the rcvr. Therefore I do not believe that I will need to push a rod down the bore. I believe that the trouble is with the bolt and the receiver... something is most likely binidng and not allowing the bolt to come back.

With some effort and coaxing, the bolt pulls back and flips the round out to the ground. Its catching on something and that is making it far more difficult than it should be. None the less, this whole situ is rather unnerving. Who knows what could happen if I find myself not being able to remove an unspent round. If for some reason I was at the field or out on the country side down some nasty bumpy road on my bike with the stick on my back. and this happens...??? how do I safely get her out of there... Not cool. Not in the least... Im going to go to the range in a the next couple of days. I will report back once I return.

You guys are awesome! thanks for so many great diagnostic approaches. More info and photos to come.
Click to expand...

does the rifle bolt cycle fine on a empty chamber? both with and without the firing pin cocked and uncocked? it shouldn't bind weather the rifle is loaded on not with a loaded cartridge or a fired brass
 
I"ve had (have) UMC factory ammo that will NOT chamber in my 30-06(bolt doesn't want to close on unfired rounds)...all other brands and my reloads chamber just fine...it could just be an ammo problem.

Is the bolt hard to close when chambering these hard to extract live rounds?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom