I use the Remington 870 with Remington solid copper sabots, and they hit like a freight train! When I'm in 60 yd. and under terrain, the sabots are deadly accurate, and have tremendous knock down value. I have a Bushnell Holo-sight mounted, and every deer I've hit with that combo has been a bang-flop. I prefer the sabots to slugs, but WITHIN THEIR RANGE LIMITATION, they are serious deer medicine. Shot placement (of course) is everything. There.....my 2 cents worth!