Any assistance from you knowledgeable folk would be appreciated. Following some advice, I polished up the hammer, sear, and trigger bar from my 22/45 to reduce trigger pull. I have accomplished this. Don't have a pull gauge, but it's noticeably lower. But I've also managed to accomplish introducing no small amount of trigger creep. It breaks fairly consistently, and takeup is pretty consistent too. But SO. MUCH. CREEP. I stress that I did not sand anything, did not grind anything. This was Mother's Metal Polish and a fabric polishing wheel on a dremel, on medium to low setting. Did I polish too much? Too little? Take it to a gunsmith, and after I stop crying, make him fix it? Thanks in advance for any help.
22/45 Trigger Job
- Thread starter Marilius
- Start date
Creep is due to the amount of overlap engagement between the sear and hammer hook. To reduce the amount of creep to where it is hardly noticeable you need to reduce the depth of the hook on the hammer. You can either fill in behind it with something or you can grind then stone down the height of the lip.
One way to test all of this is to degrease the hammer really well and then with just a small dab of good epoxy partially fill in the hook. After it cures use a sharp knife to clean off the hook but leave the epoxy as a filler shim so the sear can't engage the hook with as much overlap.
Now this is for CREEP! It is not going to affect any free play "pre-travel" movement in the trigger and other parts. So be sure you know what you're looking at. All triggers will have SOME pre-travel. The trick is to reduce it to where it's not really noticeable during normal shooting. Then there's creep where the pre-travel play is taken up and you're actually putting pressure into the sear to hook contact. It'll be the creep you feel up to the break. Then there needs to be a little bit of post break travel.
You must maintain just a hair of pre and post travel or the trigger won't reliably reset or break. But you can get it to where it's so slight that you can't feel it during normal use. Same with creep. There has to be SOME or the trigger won't be at all safe and reliable. The trick is to reduce it to where it's minimal while still being reliable and safe. If you do your own work don't try to go crazy on reducing any of these factors. Just get them down to where you can live with them and where they are such that some firm smacks with your other hand does not result in the sear slipping off the hammer. For 1911's a standard value of sear to hammer engagement amount is .018". I'd suggest you start with more like .022 and if you find it's still more creepy than you like reduce it in small amounts to .018. This obviously calls for some good measuring tools or shims you use to measure the height of the hammer hook. It's been a while since I did mine but I seem to recall that same .018 figure was what I went with. The result was that I don't have a match light trigger but it is WAY better than the stock trigger for creep and pull.
Another trick used in 1911's and which I've had pretty good luck with is very slightly chamfering the edges of the sear and hammer hook. I'm talking about one or two swipes of this edge over a super fine stone to where close inspection just barely shoes a line of light instead of a knife edge. This is not a place to use a Dremel. The idea is that the clean and slightly broken edge will self kick off at the last instant for a sharper and more "breaking glass" like trigger break. It also avoids any pre break "catch" of the two edges hanging up on each other due to any burrs. But fair warning. This is not a place where if some is good then more is better. Go too far and you will be buying a new sear and hammer. Super fine polishing stone and only enough that you can just see a thin line of reflected light where there used to be a knife edge.
Through all of this you also want and need to be sure you maintain a positive engagement angle on both the sear and the hammer hook. Get one or the other angled the wrong way and they won't self lock. And that's a dangerous situation. With no springs in the gun you should be able to engage the sear and hammer and then push against the hammer with no hold on the sear. The harder you push the more it should stay locked up. If you can push the hammer off during this test then you ruined one or both of the angles and have a dangerous setup. You'll need to examine the sear and hook and fix whichever is at fault.
If any of this sounds like black magic or you don't understand the importance of maintaining a positive self locking angle then drop the whole thing and just buy a Volquartson drop in kit. If you mess any of these steps up you can easily end up with a gun which is either dangerous due to a slight shock causing the sear to slip off the hammer or you'll get a situation where the hammer follows the bolt back down instead of cocking. But if you're clear on all this then best of luck to you and I hope you find it beneficial.
One way to test all of this is to degrease the hammer really well and then with just a small dab of good epoxy partially fill in the hook. After it cures use a sharp knife to clean off the hook but leave the epoxy as a filler shim so the sear can't engage the hook with as much overlap.
Now this is for CREEP! It is not going to affect any free play "pre-travel" movement in the trigger and other parts. So be sure you know what you're looking at. All triggers will have SOME pre-travel. The trick is to reduce it to where it's not really noticeable during normal shooting. Then there's creep where the pre-travel play is taken up and you're actually putting pressure into the sear to hook contact. It'll be the creep you feel up to the break. Then there needs to be a little bit of post break travel.
You must maintain just a hair of pre and post travel or the trigger won't reliably reset or break. But you can get it to where it's so slight that you can't feel it during normal use. Same with creep. There has to be SOME or the trigger won't be at all safe and reliable. The trick is to reduce it to where it's minimal while still being reliable and safe. If you do your own work don't try to go crazy on reducing any of these factors. Just get them down to where you can live with them and where they are such that some firm smacks with your other hand does not result in the sear slipping off the hammer. For 1911's a standard value of sear to hammer engagement amount is .018". I'd suggest you start with more like .022 and if you find it's still more creepy than you like reduce it in small amounts to .018. This obviously calls for some good measuring tools or shims you use to measure the height of the hammer hook. It's been a while since I did mine but I seem to recall that same .018 figure was what I went with. The result was that I don't have a match light trigger but it is WAY better than the stock trigger for creep and pull.
Another trick used in 1911's and which I've had pretty good luck with is very slightly chamfering the edges of the sear and hammer hook. I'm talking about one or two swipes of this edge over a super fine stone to where close inspection just barely shoes a line of light instead of a knife edge. This is not a place to use a Dremel. The idea is that the clean and slightly broken edge will self kick off at the last instant for a sharper and more "breaking glass" like trigger break. It also avoids any pre break "catch" of the two edges hanging up on each other due to any burrs. But fair warning. This is not a place where if some is good then more is better. Go too far and you will be buying a new sear and hammer. Super fine polishing stone and only enough that you can just see a thin line of reflected light where there used to be a knife edge.
Through all of this you also want and need to be sure you maintain a positive engagement angle on both the sear and the hammer hook. Get one or the other angled the wrong way and they won't self lock. And that's a dangerous situation. With no springs in the gun you should be able to engage the sear and hammer and then push against the hammer with no hold on the sear. The harder you push the more it should stay locked up. If you can push the hammer off during this test then you ruined one or both of the angles and have a dangerous setup. You'll need to examine the sear and hook and fix whichever is at fault.
If any of this sounds like black magic or you don't understand the importance of maintaining a positive self locking angle then drop the whole thing and just buy a Volquartson drop in kit. If you mess any of these steps up you can easily end up with a gun which is either dangerous due to a slight shock causing the sear to slip off the hammer or you'll get a situation where the hammer follows the bolt back down instead of cocking. But if you're clear on all this then best of luck to you and I hope you find it beneficial.
I'm aware of negative sear engagement, and the dangers of causing slam fires with too little hammer/sear engagement. I MAY just say f**k it and buy the Volquartsen set in case I screw up anyway. They really aren't that expensive. But you certainly helped a lot. Thanks!
If you're willing to buy a kit anyway then you really don't have anything to lose and much to be gained in knowledge and skill by having a go at the stock parts. If you screw them up you learn something for next time and then just order the Volquartsen kit anyway.
If you have some basic shop tools for metal working it's not that hard to make up a functional stoning jig to aid you with the hammer hook and sear angle work. If you're game let us know what you've got and we can work out a design that is easy to produce and has built in accuracy.
If you have some basic shop tools for metal working it's not that hard to make up a functional stoning jig to aid you with the hammer hook and sear angle work. If you're game let us know what you've got and we can work out a design that is easy to produce and has built in accuracy.
thenerdboy
Regular
- Location
- NB, Canada
Sorry to derail but where is the best place in Canada to purchase one of the VQ Accurizing Kits? Cheers.
Duh! VQ lists Sylvester Source for Sports as a dealer, called them, they are expecting a large order of parts middle/late next week. Didn't specifically ask about the full accurizing kits, but they are anticipating sears and hammers.
I'm thinking about ordering from these guys... http://shop.sylvestresportinggoods.com/Stocks-Accessories/Volquartsen-Accurizing-Kits/
thenerdboy
Regular
- Location
- NB, Canada
Thanks guys!
Just finished mirror polishing my stock sear and hammer engagement surfaces. Wow what a difference. Nearly every last bit of creep is gone. I don't have a trigger pull measure, but it's worlds lighter. There's the tiniest bit of creep left, but it's hardly noticeable at all. Still have the VQ hammer and sear, in case I cocked it all up, but I'm going to run my polished stock set and see how I do. Off to the range!
