.223 case sizing and a crappy case trimmer~MAN am I confused!

.22LRGUY

.22LRGUY

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Hey guys...I really appreciate the feedback on my other thread (.223 groundhogs) and thought your collective experience might be able to help me wade through my first real hiccup in re-loading. In the interest of full disclosure, I consider my budget to be a fairly modest one but NOT wanting to compromise too much, I've been rounding-up the gear over some time...and feel I'm withing striking range to actually be in production soon. So, with that in mind, let me tell you what I have, what I'm TRYING to do, and what seems to be going wrong. If I haven't lost you already, read-on! :)

My goal is to develop a great load for varmint hunting, groundhogs mostly...but for it to print well and really help me stretch the limits of how far I can take a poke at these big buggers. I took a "Hail Mary" shot at one more than 400 yards away last summer and while I don't own a range finder (will be correcting that too) it got me thinking that a shot like that should be possible. (I missed it...3 times :D ) Anyhow, the gun is a Savage Precision 10 with a 1:9" twist, 20" barrel. To the point of this thread..

In my research, .223 case length should be 1.75" but I'm wondering...how critical is that what tolerances do you guys try to achieve? With the dent in the primer caps, I thought it best to size the cases (RCBS Partner press, RCBS FL .223 dies), pop-out the primer caps and THEN measure. Brass is all once-fired Hornady, mostly loaded with 55gr. V-Max. I took some sample measurements to show you how what the sizing looked like after that process;

1.751"
1.745"
1.7435"
1.7455"
1.749"
1.747"
1.7525"
1.753"
1.749"
1.747"

Naturally...being wet behind the ears...I thought GREAT, I can try my new LEE trimmer on the long ones! This is what was recommended to me;

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/476992/lee-case-trimmer-cutter-and-lock-stud

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/107333/lee-case-length-gage-and-shellholder-223-remington

The case length gauge threads into the case trimmer/cutter, the case slides over it...that little pin protrudes into the primer pocket and (presumably) bottoms-out once the trimmer has cut the case down to the proper length...right? A perfect 1.75" case should be the net result. Wrong.

The case length gauge didn't "bottom out" when screwed into the cutter, it just got progressively tighter. It would seem to me that a "stop" of some kind, or a definite shoulder on the gauge would make sense..? Anyhow, I dropped the longest case on and it didn't connect with the cutter. (?) Naturally, I assumed that the gauge needs to be screwed into the cutter a little deeper, but I'd already reached the "hand tight" maximum. I grabbed some pliers and it threaded in deeper and without forcing it, I stopped when I felt resistance. Re-tried the case, cutter connected, but cut the case down to about 1.635". Thinking I had it too deep now (and that shouldn't be possible if this tool was any good) I backed-out the gauge a little but results after that were not consistent.

So...were I to try and wrap all this rambling-up with some concise questions, they might look like this;

1. Is this gauge/trimmer garbage, am I using it right?
2. The post-sizing dimensions above~would you load them as is, or mic. every one and trim any out of spec.?
3. Considering the application (=not match shooting) am I really over-thinking this, expecting superior results from inexpensive tools?
4. Should I push-back my plans on re-loading until I can get "better" trimmer?

Looking at those dimensions again, the most "out-of-spec" case is on the small side, but only off of the .0065".

If I haven't lost you by this point...feel free to chime in and set me straight! Thanks for taking a moment to respond.
 
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I use the Lee trim system all the time and find it very consistent when trimming batchs of the same brand of brass. I screw the case length gauge into the cutter by hand and finish with vice grips or plyers. It should bottom out in the cutter and not be able to be tightened too far. Usually cases are trimmed .010 from max so 1.760 being max you should be at or very close to 1.750" when trimmed. When the pin bottoms out on the lock stud it should stop the trimming and after chamfer and debur you should be pretty close to the 1.750". Although I don't think your short measurements are unsafe I would think your gauge might be out of spec if it is trimming them that short. I have a .308 gauge that is worn to now trim to 2.000 instead of 2.005" and for my reloading this seems to do just fine. If I was shooting long range match type stuff and trying to get everything perfect I would buy a Wilson or Forster lathe trimmer and trim to the same adjusted length for every reload. I have a cheaper Lyman lathe and didn't like it that much and hence the Lee system for most of my trimming. I can still shoot some great groups with it and is good enough for my current needs.
 
Probably more to do with your measuring device.(electronic no doubt) I measure cases and as I rotate them or try and hold them abit straighter the measurement differs. I think they will work fine for you. Cheers Roscoe
 
Thanks for the replies guys. Yes, the measurements are from digital calipers, but I have dial calipers sitting in my office here...might swap them out. Just as accurate, less distracting maybe. I also brought the gauge/trimmer with me, thinking I might drop by the gun shop I bout it from and get it swapped for a new one. Considering these are measuring devices, why would LEE not have a defined shoulder on this tool that stops the gauge from going/stopping at the wrong depth?

Hopefully it's just out of spec.
 
RoscoeP said:
Probably more to do with your measuring device.(electronic no doubt) I measure cases and as I rotate them or try and hold them abit straighter the measurement differs. I think they will work fine for you. Cheers Roscoe
Click to expand...

Oh, and yes...I'd done that. I program a CNC router as a function of my job, and measure sharpened cutters on a daily basis for compensation reasons. I use calipers 10x a day and feel confident I'm getting at least that part right. :) How MUCH the deviation matters, and whether or not I'm using the LEE tools right...guess that's what I was trying to get a sense of.
 
I full length resize every time then run them all through my laymann trimmer to 1.751. They end up being from 1.750 - 1.753. Some of the federal fmj stuff I shoot is still 1.743 after resizing I load it up just the same. For the record I use the digital callipers form canadian tire. Got them on sale for $11 they work good enough for me
 
a little short is not bad,a little long can be a problem.if max case lenght is 1.760 the lee trimmer should make them 1.750.one of the biggest problem for accurate long range ammo will be different case lenghts.as long as they do not exceed max lenght you should be alright.try to group your cases according to lenght.any that start to get close to max get set aside for trimming later when you have more or you can trim them and load them.i usually put the ones at/over max aside until i have 50+ before i trim.my case lenght gauges for my lee trimmer have to be screwed into the cutter with pliers.
 
I like to take the cutter pilot and spread the threaded portion a little bit then screw it into the cutter head.
It doesn't back out then.
The cutter blade's ARE the defined shoulder.
 
fred0000 said:
You are putting the case trimmer shell holder on right? The pin is to bottom out on that. Not the bottom of the case.
Click to expand...

Yes, but the further the the gauge (with the pin on the other end) threads into the cutter, the closer the cutter will end-up to the shell holder. It's THAT relationship that seems to matter for the O/A case length you end-up with.
 
For a mass produced "factory" bolt gun I wouldn't get too bent outta shape over a thou' or two in case length.
I'd also give up on FL sizing after the brass has been fired in a particular rifle and neck size only... Use that brass in that gun only I've found that this really shrinks group sizes.

Oh.. and Lee is crap ;-)
 
.22LRGUY said:
Yes, but the further the the gauge (with the pin on the other end) threads into the cutter, the closer the cutter will end-up to the shell holder. It's THAT relationship that seems to matter for the O/A case length you end-up with.
Click to expand...

You're supposed to bottom out the appropriate length case length gauge to the cutter. Sounds like you're trying to fine tune your length by unscrewing it a little bit.... Don't. Use it as intended.
 
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