223 for F class open?
- Thread starter kengkyle
- Start date
It may not be as competitive as you want. That is a good reason to go into F-restricted, then it is down to reading wind against others using the same caliber. With some of these 6mm-7mm variant guys running around, it would be hard to win in F-open. I am NOT saying that it can't be done but it would be harder to be competitive in F-open with a .223.
Depends how good the gun can shoot and how good you are at steering it. Generally, the 223 isn't used by F-open guys. As long as the gun weighs less than the 8kg max, it would be classed as an F-Restricted or F-TR depending what bullet weight you would be using.
The point of shooting F-Open is the freedom to use the most efficient and inherently accurate cartridges available, and capitalize on the 22 pound weight limit as well.
The point of shooting F-Open is the freedom to use the most efficient and inherently accurate cartridges available, and capitalize on the 22 pound weight limit as well.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
A few years back, the Farky was won by a shooter with a 308. Didn't catch which bullet was used but very good shooting. Can a 223 do the same? Of course, but you better be on your A+ Game cause a 223 or 308 is no where near as forgiving as the 6mm to 7mm options we gravitate to.
Why do you ask?
30" barrels don't do alot for the 223. I have tried them and didn't get much more velocity then the 22" I am running now. There seems to be a 'speed' where the 80's like to run in 8 or 7 twist barrels and it isn't really that fast.
2800 to 2875fps is pretty much it. I have heard of those running over 2900fps but have never achieved it without crazy pressures and lousy accuracy.
Jerry
Why do you ask?
30" barrels don't do alot for the 223. I have tried them and didn't get much more velocity then the 22" I am running now. There seems to be a 'speed' where the 80's like to run in 8 or 7 twist barrels and it isn't really that fast.
2800 to 2875fps is pretty much it. I have heard of those running over 2900fps but have never achieved it without crazy pressures and lousy accuracy.
Jerry
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Obtunded, are skipods ok for a front rest? sounds like the class went "American".
Jerry
Jerry
Yeah I believe Ski-pods are ok, there was a thread somewhere awhile ago about front rests/spiked feet/ski pods etc... and Ski pods are fine, and spiked feet are fine as long as they are no more than 2" and they don't do damage to the firing line. Not sure what they call "damage" but either way...
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I have no idea how these guys get that type of velocity from the 308 or 223. Sounds like proof pressure loadings to me.
Yes, the 223 will do everything that a 308 will do if you compare SAAMI specs. And they can be equally hotrodded as this post shows.
WRT SAAMI, the 308 should be around 2850/2900fps with the 155's. The 223 should be 2850/2900fps with the 80's in standard length barrels.
A 308 is rated at 2450fps with a 200gr bullet. A 208gr is isn't going to go 300fps faster even in a 30" pipe without some serious pressures.
In F/F (sorry, I don't like the present rule changes), the 223 can be equally affective against the 308's except cutting a smaller hole. But the much lower recoil and barrel heat will pay dividends in the long run.
There should no problem making a 18lbs 223 or 308 WITH a 4lbs ski pod. Easier with a 223 of course. Just need to look at a stock that doesn't weigh 6lbs... :-0
I would not want a bipod that has spikes that dig into the ground. The recoil jolt is going to tear up your mounting spot/stock and likely cause your rifle to have some serious vertical as the rifle recoils in a multitude of ways.
The Remple ski feet are ideal. The rifle must be able to move during recoil.
Jerry
Yes, the 223 will do everything that a 308 will do if you compare SAAMI specs. And they can be equally hotrodded as this post shows.
WRT SAAMI, the 308 should be around 2850/2900fps with the 155's. The 223 should be 2850/2900fps with the 80's in standard length barrels.
A 308 is rated at 2450fps with a 200gr bullet. A 208gr is isn't going to go 300fps faster even in a 30" pipe without some serious pressures.
In F/F (sorry, I don't like the present rule changes), the 223 can be equally affective against the 308's except cutting a smaller hole. But the much lower recoil and barrel heat will pay dividends in the long run.
There should no problem making a 18lbs 223 or 308 WITH a 4lbs ski pod. Easier with a 223 of course. Just need to look at a stock that doesn't weigh 6lbs... :-0
I would not want a bipod that has spikes that dig into the ground. The recoil jolt is going to tear up your mounting spot/stock and likely cause your rifle to have some serious vertical as the rifle recoils in a multitude of ways.
The Remple ski feet are ideal. The rifle must be able to move during recoil.
Jerry
The 223 with 90gr Bergers with a very high BC would work well, but you would need a 1/6 0r maybe a 1/7 twist. There is a fellow who claims he getting them up to 2850fps in a 28" barrel with VT powders, read articale but missed placed it. If you put a gun in the hands of Alain Marion who reads the wind extreemly well he would be very competitive.
manitou
manitou
Jerry;
My Rem 40X in 223 Rem with 29.5 inch 1:8 twist McLennan barrel pushes 80gr molycoated Sierra MKs at a tad over 2,950 fps (as per Chrony measurement) with my pet load. At 205 m it prints .25 MOA to .30 MOA 5-shot groups.
Brian
My Rem 40X in 223 Rem with 29.5 inch 1:8 twist McLennan barrel pushes 80gr molycoated Sierra MKs at a tad over 2,950 fps (as per Chrony measurement) with my pet load. At 205 m it prints .25 MOA to .30 MOA 5-shot groups.
Brian
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Gunsmoke, 2950fps is not unreasonable when SAAMI is around 2900fps with a 24" pipe. My barrels have all shot their best when velocities were slower.
It's when you get 3100fps that you kind of scratch your head.
Jerry
It's when you get 3100fps that you kind of scratch your head.
Jerry
Bullet hole size make a huge difference when you're using "Unskilled labour" to mark them. Although each hole is supposed to be considered an 8mm (actually just under) hole, this is frequently overlooked.
For my money, one would be hard pressed to beat a 308 shooting long, high BC palma bullets at 2900-300fps. There is a reason the hall of fame BCRA TR shooters all use 308's. Ironically, these guys spend their time shooting and not BS'ing on forums like this.
For my money, one would be hard pressed to beat a 308 shooting long, high BC palma bullets at 2900-300fps. There is a reason the hall of fame BCRA TR shooters all use 308's. Ironically, these guys spend their time shooting and not BS'ing on forums like this.
rnbra-shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
Hi Ken, .223 won't be competitive in F/Open. Even if the .223 shooter is a very good wind reader, so will the guy shooting a 6.5-.284 against him in the same class. Whose higher performance cartridge will, on average and over time, gain him points and beat the .223 shooter. Like playing blackjack or roulette against the house...
Fortunately there is pretty good competition to be had in F/Farquharson and F/Restricted (both classes allow only .223/.308).
Fortunately there is pretty good competition to be had in F/Farquharson and F/Restricted (both classes allow only .223/.308).
Some 1000 yard records are held with the 6mmDasher. The 223 with 90gr bullets in a 1in7 twist barrel going 2800fps are identical in drift to the best 6mmDasher loads at 1000 yards. The 6.5mm Berger 140 has a BC of .612 and it goes 2950 fps just like the Dasher. The 6mm Berger 105 has a BC of .532. The 90gr 223 Berger has a BC of .551. The 308 Lapua is .508 and also goes 2950. My particular Dasher uses 108's which have a BC of .511 and go 2970. Pretty much EXACTLY the same as the 308.
The Super Shoot 2009 results are fairly typical of a large world class BENCHREST match. Approx 302 shooters at 100 yards in the light gun class and 290 in the heavy gun class fired the match. Only 17 shooters in light and 16 in heavy managed to shoot UNDER a .2500" agg, thats 33 out of almost 600. These are the best of the best of rifles, ammo, equipment, shooters, you name it. My point is, don't expect groups to be 1/4 minute in our game.
The 6.5x284 may be 20% better by wind drift but its only the amount of shooter error that is effected. If your wind judgement is at 25% of what is actually going on, the impact difference will be 1/4 of the total drift, but remember it doesn't matter what your shooting. With a 20% difference between the calibers, and 25% wind reading error, the difference isn't much. At 1000 yards 5% [25% of the 20% advantage] of the 223's drift with 90's in a considerable 10mph compared to the 6.5X284 is 0.6" difference. Yes it's a difference but you pay for it, in dollars, and thats IF your rifle shoots exactly the same size groups down to the .06 MOA.
Ken, I'll probably go to the 223 next year when I'll need a new barrel. My advise is to make sure you leave your good shooting 308 alone and if you really want a 223, I'll get one too
Cheers,
Rob
The Super Shoot 2009 results are fairly typical of a large world class BENCHREST match. Approx 302 shooters at 100 yards in the light gun class and 290 in the heavy gun class fired the match. Only 17 shooters in light and 16 in heavy managed to shoot UNDER a .2500" agg, thats 33 out of almost 600. These are the best of the best of rifles, ammo, equipment, shooters, you name it. My point is, don't expect groups to be 1/4 minute in our game.
The 6.5x284 may be 20% better by wind drift but its only the amount of shooter error that is effected. If your wind judgement is at 25% of what is actually going on, the impact difference will be 1/4 of the total drift, but remember it doesn't matter what your shooting. With a 20% difference between the calibers, and 25% wind reading error, the difference isn't much. At 1000 yards 5% [25% of the 20% advantage] of the 223's drift with 90's in a considerable 10mph compared to the 6.5X284 is 0.6" difference. Yes it's a difference but you pay for it, in dollars, and thats IF your rifle shoots exactly the same size groups down to the .06 MOA.
Ken, I'll probably go to the 223 next year when I'll need a new barrel. My advise is to make sure you leave your good shooting 308 alone and if you really want a 223, I'll get one too
Cheers,
Rob
Bring the .223 this weekend and shoot it! I don't think there will be enough F-O and F-Tr guys to make seperate classes, so it would be a great chance to try agains the 6-47's that will be there. One thing I've noticed after shooting the new F target this year is the F-O and F-TR scores seem to be getting closer. I think you could do ok w/ the .223 on the shorts. I wouldn't build one to shoot open, but I'd be tempted to try it if you already have one that shoots really well already.
