223 Twist Rate/Bullet Weight/Barrel Length/Barrel Choice

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calvados.boulard

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Hi everyone,

As some of you may know I'm building a 700 based rifle. I'm chambering it in 223. I had already decided on a 1:9 twist, but am now second guessing that decision and am debating a 1:8. From my research it seems most point to the 1:8 as the twist rate that will shoot the widest range of projectiles. 55gr-80gr is often stated, though I'm unsure if this is based on reality or simply keyboard jockey smack talk.

The questions I have for you knowledgeable and experienced folk are:
  • Given some load developing and experimenting will I be able to find a 55gr projectile/load that will shoot sub MOA through a 1:8?
  • How do JC Custom barrels stack up vs Jury barrels? My recent search for a 1:9 twist barrel, (and a tight timeline to get it to my smith), led me to these two who are able to build a barrel within the timelines. Not to mention the JC Custom barrels are cheaper than others out there.
  • What length would you choose for a 223 1:8 barrel given that this will be a prone/bench gun?

Thanks everyone,
Cal.
 
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I have a 1-8" in 223. Coyote gun not target rifle. Think it's a heavy sporter barrel douglas. It will shoot moa or better with 55's at 100yds. Beyond that couldn't tell you.
 
So you're building a bolt rifle which leads me to believe you have an interest in using it for long range. The 1:9 will betray that intent.

I can tell you that I know several long range TR and F Class shooters who barreled up with 1:9s and have cursed that decision for years, because they could not shoot heavies which are critical for long range, if you want to be competitive.

I myself have had several 223s over the years and would never go with a 1:9 on a custom bolt gun.

The second most accurate rifle I have is a 223 with a 2x cryo treated 1:8 barrel and it's really an excellent all around rifle. It shoots about 0.250" groups of 5 rounds pretty consistently with 69 or 80 grainers.

If I was to build a new rifle tomorrow, I'd definitely use a 1:7. I have had a 1:7 before and loved it and the barrel maker talked me into the 1:8 mentioned above which I have regretted. Not because its not accurate or effective but I have found that the 1:7 helps the bullet remain accurate down range after getting pushed by variable winds as it moves down range.

I shoot F Class with a guy who's awesome with a 223, inside 600 yards he wins frequently especially in moderate wind conditions. He shoots 80 and 90 grain bullets and I think he might even be running a 1:6-1/2 twist. So don't be afraid the 1:7 is too fast because it is not.
 
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BadAsMo said:
So you're building a bolt rifle which leads me to believe you have an interest in using it for long range. The 1:9 will betray that intent.

I can tell you that I know several long range TR and F Class shooters who barreled up with 1:9s and have cursed that decision for years, because they could not shoot heavies which are critical for long range, if you want to be competitive.

I myself have had several 223s over the years and would never go with a 1:9 on a custom bolt gun.

The second most accurate rifle I have is a 223 with a 2x cryo treated 1:8 barrel and it's really an excellent all around rifle. It shoots about 0.250" groups of 5 rounds pretty consistently with 69 or 80 grainers.

If I was to build a new rifle tomorrow, I'd definitely use a 1:7. I have had a 1:7 before and loved it and the barrel maker talked me into the 1:8 mentioned above which I have regretted. Not because its not accurate or effective but I have found that the 1:7 helps the bullet remain accurate down range after getting pushed by variable winds as it moves down range.

I shoot F Class with a guy who's awesome with a 223, inside 600 yards he wins frequently especially in moderate wind conditions. He shoots 80 and 90 grain bullets and I think he might even be running a 1:6-1/2 twist. So don't be afraid the 1:7 is too fast because it is not.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply BadAsMo.

My goal with this build was not necessarily long range per se, but rather a great gun for the distance I currently have available to shoot (300yd), but with the ability to stretch it out from time to time when in the back 40. My questions around the 55gr stem from my desire to keep costs down when shooting the 300yd range.

What I have read/been told echos what you're saying in the 1/7 being the better long range choice. However those same people say the 1/7 and 55gr go together like oil and water. This goal and my research has lead me to the 1/9 or 1/8 debate.

Given that expanded info I'm guessing you would advocate for the 1/8?

Thanks BadAsMo,
Cal
 
its not that the 1:7 is bad for 55 grain bullets.
Its bad for "cheap" 55 grain bullets.

The fast twist will induce a speed wobble if the bullet is not concentric.

If you are intent on light bullets then yes 1:8 is the better choice because the door is open for the day your wallet is as well.

Cheap ammo = cheap results.

I would advise that you do your best to steer away from any bullet lighter than 69 grains.

If you hand load then just buy the 80 grain tipped SMKs and your costs will be manageable.

How long do you figure you will have this rifle is how long you will regret cheaping out today.

If you expect to hunt with this rifle the 1:7 will improve explosive terminal performance... that's the number one reason to go that way even if accuracy was not quite as good, but with good bullets it will actually be better at long ranges... like 1000 yards.
 
BadAsMo said:
its not that the 1:7 is bad for 55 grain bullets.
Its bad for "cheap" 55 grain bullets.

The fast twist will induce a speed wobble if the bullet is not concentric.

If you are intent on light bullets then yes 1:8 is the better choice because the door is open for the day your wallet is as well.

Cheap ammo = cheap results.

I would advise that you do your best to steer away from any bullet lighter than 69 grains.

If you hand load then just buy the 80 grain tipped SMKs and your costs will be manageable.

How long do you figure you will have this rifle is how long you will regret cheaping out today.

If you expect to hunt with this rifle the 1:7 will improve explosive terminal performance... that's the number one reason to go that way even if accuracy was not quite as good, but with good bullets it will actually be better at long ranges... like 1000 yards.
Click to expand...

Thanks again BadAsMo.

What do you mean by "the door is open for the day your wallet is as well"? Do you mean the 1/8 will shoot a wider range of bullet weight/lengths, but it will cost me? Sorry, I'm confused by this?

Fair points on cheap ammo = cheap results, as well as regretting cheaping out today. I'm basically looking for a way to practice inexpensively at short range, then swap loads for longer range. I recognise that longer range will cost more in all possible ways.

Thanks again BadAsMo,
Cal.
 
My tikka T3 varmint with the 1/8 twist shoots the federal red boxe 55gr fmj very well.I would have to say a tad over moa at 300.I don't shoot a lot of paper at 300 but I'm usually 3or 4 out of 5 shots hitting a full pop can or a clay at 300,with no wind. It's very affordable when on sale it's just over 50 cents per round. I find it more accurate than the 62gr.
 
savagecanuck said:
My tikka T3 varmint with the 1/8 twist shoots the federal red boxe 55gr fmj very well.I would have to say a tad over moa at 300.I don't shoot a lot of paper at 300 but I'm usually 3or 4 out of 5 shots hitting a full pop can or a clay at 300,with no wind. It's very affordable when on sale it's just over 50 cents per round. I find it more accurate than the 62gr.
Click to expand...

Thanks SavageCanuck,
Cal.
 
calvados.boulard said:
Hi everyone,

As some of you may know I'm building a 700 based rifle. I'm chambering it in 223. I had already decided on a 1:9 twist, but am now second guessing that decision and am debating a 1:8. From my research it seems most point to the 1:8 as the twist rate that will shoot the widest range of projectiles. 55gr-80gr is often stated, though I'm unsure if this is based on reality or simply keyboard jockey smack talk.

The questions I have for you knowledgeable and experienced folk are:
  • Given some load developing and experimenting will I be able to find a 55gr projectile/load that will shoot sub MOA through a 1:8?
  • How do JC Custom barrels stack up vs Jury barrels? My recent search for a 1:9 twist barrel, (and a tight timeline to get it to my smith), led me to these two who are able to build a barrel within the timelines. Not to mention the JC Custom barrels are cheaper than others out there.
  • What length would you choose for a 223 1:8 barrel given that this will be a prone/bench gun?

Thanks everyone,
Cal.
Click to expand...

My personal experience was with a factory Savage 1:9 24" barrel and it shot very well out to 600 yards with 77 grain Sierra Match Kings over 24.2 grains of Varget, using Federal .223 brass, that was trimmed and had the primer pockets cleaned up, with Federal GM Match primers. This barrel actually shot these better than the 69's and blew the doors off Hornady 75 Grain AMAX's... they were the worst of the three bullets in this barrel. YMMV.
 
There are 5 shooters in Ottawa area shooting 223 custom made and all use 1/7 twist. Berger had posted on there web page that there 80gr vld,80.5 and these 82 gr recommendation was a 1/8 twist. Well read about there bullets now its 1/7 for all three bullets.
Some of guys built 1/8 and they soon changed or sold there 1/8 because they just don't shoot as good as the 7s.
Your been pretty firm on using 50 to 55 gr bullets well you will do fine at 100 y maybe okay at 200 y but you will get smoked at 300 & 400 against the 80 gr There is a shoot spring and fall at Eganville ON where they shoot 100 to 400y fellow had a 40x Rem that would tack at 100 y at 300 & 400 he was lost those light bullets just have no BC and don't work well at long distances.
You want to see what those 80 gr Bergers or SMK do to a coyote at 2950 fps.
Like Bad Ass said try the Sierra 80 gr the new ones they are pointed good to 1000 yards accurate. this is what Sierra says on there 80 gr
This bullet requires a barrel twist rate of 1x8” or faster.
If you think you could shoot this group at 300 with 55 gr bullets yes it possible but very unlikely a 1 km breeze will cause you problems.
Member here just put a new Bartlein barrel I/7 twist and shot a 5 shot group.588" group at 500 yards I have seen 3 groups fired in one day bye two shooters at 300 y under .600"
And don't bother reading posts how good 2000,rl15, powders etc work with a 223 DON"T USE ANY DOUBLE BASE POWDERS They go crazy in warm days of summer.
the powder is VARGET Hands down the best for 223 Rem



View attachment 92401
 
I had a 1:8 T3 varm, then went to a 1:7 Krieger on a 5R action - the latter shoots much better with 69 thru 90 gr, extremely boringly accurate.
Yes Varget. Noticed exactly what above poster mentions, R15 is wicked until it gets hot outside - Varget does not.
If you're gonna do a build, want to shoot far, and you reload, get a 1:7 and don't look back.
 
Guys... listen to Manitou210's advice.

There is nobody who I trust more on 223 than Manitou210.

If you've ever had the pleasure of shooting with him you'll understand.

And that group up there is about right.... meaning no fluke.
 
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