22LR Limitations - Realistic 5 Shot Group Size - 50 yards?
- Thread starter -Doug-
- Start date
Several years ago I had a conversation with a competitive small bore shooter at a local range. Turns out he had the same rifle as I did, Anschutz 1411. Said he used it for the prone portion of the 3 position matches. We chatted a bit and he pulled out a target to show me, I’d guess it was just a fluke and is why he saved it but nonetheless it was a single hole in a small bore target at 50 yards, I believe he said it was 5 shots. It literally looked like he fired once on the target and the other 4 shots in the air. Not an oblong single hole but a single bullet hole period. This was with aperture sights and sling in prone position. Not sure if he was just bull$hiting me or what but I have the same rifle model and although shot many 1/4” groups with it, could not come close to match that feat even from a bench rest with 24 power scope.
To add clarification, the Anschutz 1411 is designed for prone shooting (and its design is very good on the bench too). In 3 position matches shooters use the same rifle throughout. The Anschutz 1413 was the contemporaneous 3P Anschutz rifle used by men.
I would say your groups are awesome. I’d be pumped.
Not that I play with match grade ammo much due to cost.
But if you can shoot 10shots under 1” @ 50 with CCI SV every time you are doing good.
I have always found longer range is better if you are “ammo” searching for a rimfire. 150yrds imo is eiser to read.
Not that I play with match grade ammo much due to cost.
But if you can shoot 10shots under 1” @ 50 with CCI SV every time you are doing good.
I have always found longer range is better if you are “ammo” searching for a rimfire. 150yrds imo is eiser to read.
Similar to my 50 yard question I asked earlier id like your opinion on 100 yards accuracy:
Scenario:
Distance = 100 yards
Bench Shooting
Wind - Zero to very little (hardly any vegetation moving)
Ammo - whatever match grade ammo you like
Rifle - CZ457 1lb trigger or equivalent
I’m excluding the high end Voodoo, RimX, custom barrel…$3000 plus setups from this question.
Just your basic Varmint, T1x, B14 factory rifle with maybe a trigger job.
Questions:
1. What is a realistic consistent 5 shot group size (assuming shooting is doing their part) that should be expected from the above scenario?
2. Is a 5 shot group appropriate to be using for 100 yard tests or is a 10 shot group more appropriate?
I am leaning towards thinking 10 shot but I’d like to hear your feedback and reasoning?
Scenario:
Distance = 100 yards
Bench Shooting
Wind - Zero to very little (hardly any vegetation moving)
Ammo - whatever match grade ammo you like
Rifle - CZ457 1lb trigger or equivalent
I’m excluding the high end Voodoo, RimX, custom barrel…$3000 plus setups from this question.
Just your basic Varmint, T1x, B14 factory rifle with maybe a trigger job.
Questions:
1. What is a realistic consistent 5 shot group size (assuming shooting is doing their part) that should be expected from the above scenario?
2. Is a 5 shot group appropriate to be using for 100 yard tests or is a 10 shot group more appropriate?
I am leaning towards thinking 10 shot but I’d like to hear your feedback and reasoning?
- Location
- Nova Scotia
I'm happy if I get 1" or so at 50. As I know realistically I never got under 2" at 100m ( When I shot the 100M challenge, it was the best I could do ) I'm not much of a precision person, as it requires me straining my eyes hard to focus.
By most standards, at 100 yards with .22LR sporter rifle a five-shot 1" (1 MOA) or better group is good. Remember that .22LR accuracy isn't linear. That is to say, performance gets worse as distance increases. What's relatively easy at 50 yards, say .5" or (1 MOA) is much more challenging at twicee the distance.
Ten shot groups are composed of more information. As a result they can be more useful for assessing things than five shot groups. The latter nevertheless remains a typical standard for .22LR shooting.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Doug - perhaps think about what it is that you want to accomplish? Bench rest, etc. is scored about what did your last 5 or 10 or whatever shots do - for some, that is the measure of something. I spent most of my shooting as a hunter - so my primary concern became where is the next shot going to go? So the group size, for me, is about probability - 3 shots give less certainty than 5 shots, which is less certainty that 10, than 20, etc. The mathematics of probability can help you work out how many shots needed to be 95% sure (or 97%, or 99.9%) where the next one will go - is not typically a concern for some target competitions - where what you did counts, not what you will do.
I did not word that last part exactly how I meant - for a hunter, is mostly the "next" shot that counts - for target scores, is all your past shots that get scored - maybe different emphasis??
And, is some discussion that I read where a typical hunter is concerned with the first, clean, cold barrel shot - where does that go? May or may not be related to the groups that you and the rifle shoot - but is the one shot of most concern. I read many target shooting disciplines have "sighting in" shots, have "warm up" and so on, prior to producing groups for score - is a very different thing than the hunter's requirement to place that first one, precisely.
Some time ago I read an Internet article by an alleged US Marine sniper - who claimed to have been coached by Carlos Hathcock - I hope the story was true - I do not know that. Writer said that he was free to fire whatever he wanted during the day - to "practice" - the "test", however, was each morning - rain, sunny, windy, calm, cold or hot - meet Hathcock at a range - a target at unspecified / unknown distance to student - now put a bullet into it - yes or no, hit or miss - one shot for "all the marbles". Hathcock apparently had no interest in any more shots - that was up to the student - Hathcock concerned only about the clean, cold barrel hit or miss - one shot per day.
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Occasionally, the ammunition that shows the best groups at 50 will not be the best at 100 and the reverse also applies.
With that in the back of my mind . . . it is not worth worrying about on game day.
There are different lots of ammo preferred by other rifles and keeping those issues in order.
The Remington has a tuner and I have not found it necessary to change setting from 50 to 100 but that may be for another day.
The Remington's preference is Remington Eley Match (1062), the Anschutz prefers 1067 at 100 but produced a flyer at 50.
The Coopers prefer the higher velocities of Eley Match and Tenex Biathlon at 100 and while both qualified in the five 5-shot challenge, they are not otherwise used at that distance.
My testing of ammunition lots is 10-shot groups at 100 yards over wind flags using the entire box but abandoning after 3 or 4 groups when results suggest going forward is wasting "foulers".
Making decisions based on one 5-shot or 10-shot group does not make statistical sense.
With that in the back of my mind . . . it is not worth worrying about on game day.
There are different lots of ammo preferred by other rifles and keeping those issues in order.
The Remington has a tuner and I have not found it necessary to change setting from 50 to 100 but that may be for another day.
The Remington's preference is Remington Eley Match (1062), the Anschutz prefers 1067 at 100 but produced a flyer at 50.
The Coopers prefer the higher velocities of Eley Match and Tenex Biathlon at 100 and while both qualified in the five 5-shot challenge, they are not otherwise used at that distance.
My testing of ammunition lots is 10-shot groups at 100 yards over wind flags using the entire box but abandoning after 3 or 4 groups when results suggest going forward is wasting "foulers".
Making decisions based on one 5-shot or 10-shot group does not make statistical sense.
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Tracking the cold bore shot is good advice. My first shot of the day is usually not tight in the first group I shoot.
My 22 setup is for NRL, ORPS, CRPS style shooting.
Extremely small groups for bench rest shooting is not the objective.
My questions are meant so I can gain an understanding of two things:
1. 22LR capabilities for accuracy at both 50 and 100 yards
2. To have some form of reference point to evaluate both my firearms and my own capabilities
The information provided so far by people who have responded to this thread has been both very useful and entertaining - thank you all!
I’ve done a test at 50 yards and will soon be doing a formal grouping test at 100 (just waiting for a day that’s not 35C with 40km/he winds!)
Extremely small groups for bench rest shooting is not the objective.
My questions are meant so I can gain an understanding of two things:
1. 22LR capabilities for accuracy at both 50 and 100 yards
2. To have some form of reference point to evaluate both my firearms and my own capabilities
The information provided so far by people who have responded to this thread has been both very useful and entertaining - thank you all!
I’ve done a test at 50 yards and will soon be doing a formal grouping test at 100 (just waiting for a day that’s not 35C with 40km/he winds!)
If it's good at 100 is there any reason why it wouldn't be very good at 50?
Here's the reason for the question.
It seems obvious that shooters can't expect .22LR ammo to produce groups that experience convergence between 50 and 100. Groups don't get smaller MOA-wise as distance increases. In fact .22LR ammo experiences dispersion -- they get larger MOA-wise -- as distance increases.
Only under very rare, unusual, and unpredictable conditions some groups may actually get smaller MOA-wise between 50 and 100. On the rare occasions that it does occur, the causes of it means that such results may not be reproducible throughout a lot.
Here is a target I designed myself. This one if for CF hunting rifles, but the principle
applies. Potashminer mentioned the +3" sighting. This target shows that "circle"
Aimig point is the white square. Black lines/corners help you center the crosshairs.
The group was shot at 100M Dave.
applies. Potashminer mentioned the +3" sighting. This target shows that "circle"
Aimig point is the white square. Black lines/corners help you center the crosshairs.
The group was shot at 100M Dave.
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prairie lover
CGN Regular
- Location
- southern MB
All depends on the ammo. I dont have fancier stuff than czs and modded 1022s with green mountain barrel. With the better match ammo they will shoot very well. The ruger generally outdoes the cz with expensive match ammo. When I did the challenge on here at 50 yards the 1022 averaged .388.
However with hv hunting ammo the cz is better. Hv ammo can turn out some amazing 5 shot groups at 50 yards. .500 or less. But I have never ever seen hv ammo do this CONSISTANTLY besides sk hv hp with is no longer made. I have eleys hv hp but have never tried it. Cheaper stuff like remington Golden bullets and American eagles, thunderbolts, all shoot well enough for varmints out past 50 yards. But what you will see when shooting groups especially 10 shot groups is fliers. 6 to 8 of 10 going into .5, and then the remaining are fliers that open the group up some. How much depends on the rifle and ammo.Still minute of blackbird but......a flier. With the cz these groups including fliers will be. 75 to 1 inch at 50, usually under an inch. 1 ragged hole chewed with a few fliers around it is the norm. Thats just the way cheap ammo is. It only gets worse from there with cheap ammo. Both my rifles absolutely hate the winchester 333 and 554 bulk packs. 2 plus inches at 50.
However with hv hunting ammo the cz is better. Hv ammo can turn out some amazing 5 shot groups at 50 yards. .500 or less. But I have never ever seen hv ammo do this CONSISTANTLY besides sk hv hp with is no longer made. I have eleys hv hp but have never tried it. Cheaper stuff like remington Golden bullets and American eagles, thunderbolts, all shoot well enough for varmints out past 50 yards. But what you will see when shooting groups especially 10 shot groups is fliers. 6 to 8 of 10 going into .5, and then the remaining are fliers that open the group up some. How much depends on the rifle and ammo.Still minute of blackbird but......a flier. With the cz these groups including fliers will be. 75 to 1 inch at 50, usually under an inch. 1 ragged hole chewed with a few fliers around it is the norm. Thats just the way cheap ammo is. It only gets worse from there with cheap ammo. Both my rifles absolutely hate the winchester 333 and 554 bulk packs. 2 plus inches at 50.
