.257 Condor Rifle

wjklassen

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I have recently traded for a custom .257 Condor rifle built on a 1966 Winchester Model 70 action with a 28 inch bull barrel fitted into a heavy Winchester target stock. I acquired it from a fellow CGNer who provided me with dies, brass and bullets as well as its interesting history. Does anyone on this forum have any experience with this wildcat calibre from the late 1950s or own a rifle in this calibre? Apparently this wildcat was copyrighted and only a relatively low number of rifles were produced.

Thanks for your help.
 
Sounds like a solution in search of a problem. Sounds like a cool rifle, but the cartridge is a dog as far as I am concerned. I hope you didn't trade anything too valuable for it. There's a nice article about it here: https://www.cartridgecollector.net/257-condor
 
I was very careful not to engage with the seller when this was listed, don’t need another rifle. It looked like a fun range toy and came with enough components to make up the value. Enjoy!
 
The 257 Condor cartridge is really nothing more than a slightly-shorter .257 Weatherby Magnum. The case has just about identical configuration and capacity to those of the more usual magnums of similar case length--the .257 Wby Mag., .264 Win. Mag., and 7mm Rem. Mag. According to P. O. Ackley, 257 Condor cases can be made by necking down 7x61 S&H cases, and this would suggest that the case is slightly shorter and has slightly less capacity than the standard magnums mentioned. I think that if I were forming new cases, I'd probably go with .264 Win. Mag. cases necked down and trimmed to the right length. After fire-forming, they should be fine. Most of the information in the brief article Blastattack cites is pretty pretty run-of-the-mill for any wildcat, including the shoulder configuration which sounds very similar to the double-radius shoulder of the Weatherby Magnums. About all that distinguishes it from the .257 Wby Mag. is that it was designed to shoot very-long .25 caliber hunting bullets (160-grain), and, consequently, any rifle chambered for this cartridge must have a very-fast twist barrel--something like the 1:6 or 1:7 twist cited in the article. For what it's worth, Ackley lists 1:7 as the standard twist.

Wjklassen, have you determined the barrel twist? It would be interesting to know that. And it would be interesting to know how it does with the usual obtainable 115- to 120-grain .257 caliber hunting bullets. Will they be too over-stabilized to shoot well? Berger makes a long .25 cal. 135-grain VLD target bullet that requires a 1:8 twist, and you might try some of these in your new rifle.

The article cited above in Post #2 comes across as a rather strange read, although this may be due to the fact that it was written in 1960, before much of the current knowledge about wildcatting was available. The cartridge is presented as some kind of amazing development (and maybe in 1960 it seemed so) by something of a ballistic genius, one Ramon Somavia, that required "copyrighting" and "may be used only under license," when, in fact, it is just another wildcat that won't do anything any other magnum-size .25 cal. wildcat won't do. In fact, someone with a .257 Wby Mag. action could screw a 1:6 or 1:7 twist barrel onto his action and have virtually the same thing, but what would be the point since 150- and 160-grain .25 caliber hunting bullets just aren't available the last time I looked, the heaviest being 120 grains.

There have been other wildcat .25 cal. magnum cartridges that are for all intents and purposes identical to the 257 Condor--the .25 ICL Magnum and the .257 Baker Magnum, for example, both on a necked-down .264 Win. Mag. case. These and the 257 Condor are discussed in Ackley's two-volume Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders. In addition, Ackley mentions the 258 Condor, also designed by the same Ramon Somavia who designed the 257 Condor. The 258 Condor case was a blown-out, necked-down .300 H&H case and so longer and of greater capacity than the 257 version.

Not meaning to sound negative here, wjklassen, and I hope you enjoy shooting your new, and very rare, rifle. It should be fun trying out different hunting bullets, and I'd suspect that those in the 115- to 120-grain range will shoot best. If reloading, I'd start with starting loads (or, better, slightly below) for the .257 Wby Mag. in the various loading manuals. It would be great if you could post a picture or two of the rifle. Pictures are always welcome on this forum!:)
 
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I knew a fellow who hunted with a 257 Condor when I was a kid. Used 160 Barnes spitzers. I still have a 257 headstamped cartridge in the collection (the collection is a coffee can full of old ammo). Today, there are not a lot of bullets long enough to require a 7 inch twist (an eight would stabilize the 160 Barnes just fine BTW) but any of the 120's will probably shoot well
 
Today, there are not a lot of bullets long enough to require a 7 inch twist (an eight would stabilize the 160 Barnes just fine BTW) but any of the 120's will probably shoot well
I don't think there are any 160-grain .25 cal. hunting bullets available today, or, for that matter, anything close to benefiting from a 1:7 twist. The 160 Barnes you mention is long gone, and the heaviest .25 cal. hunting bullets I've run across have been about 120 grains. Whether the OP’s Condor will over-stabilize 120s to the point of poor accuracy is the question, I guess, and won’t be known until we get a range report.
 
I was very careful not to engage with the seller when this was listed, don’t need another rifle. It looked like a fun range toy and came with enough components to make up the value. Enjoy!

Haha, concerned you might accidentally stumble into a new gun?

I'd never heard of .257 Condor until this thread, thanks for bringing it to light, OP!
 
Iirc it was packaged with enough 160 grain .257 bullets to shoot out a barrel. Got me thinking about reamers and rabbit holes.
 
All that fast twist heavy for cal stuff is making a comeback. Someone will probably release a new 257 fast twist soon enough.
 
All that fast twist heavy for cal stuff is making a comeback. Someone will probably release a new 257 fast twist soon enough.

Yep, the .25 Creedmoor is effectively just that. There aren't enough bullets yet to really make a good selection though, so I'll stick with 10-twist and 100gr Partitions out of my Weatherby. BC might be all the rage these day but 100gr@3500fps slaps.
 
Thanks everyone and especially SouthPender for your comments. I have a modest collection of .25 caliber rifles, including a .257 Weatherby, but the rarity of this one appealed to me. It did come with dies, more than a lifetime supply of Norma 160 gr bullets as well as a lot of new unprimed Norma brass. My plan is to load some ammunition for it and compare it to the .257 Weatherby - but both rifles are too heavy for me to use for hunting. I'll post some pictures of the rifle and accessories soon.
 
Here are few pictures of the rifle and bullets and brass. The rifle is built on a 1966 M70 action; the 28 inch barrel is unmarked except for .257 Condor and 68 electro-pencilled on the underside. I assume the 68 stands for 1968 when the rifle might have been built. It belonged at one time to the late Alex Bulman, a rancher and benchrest shooter from the Kamloops, BC area. He was friends with Dr. Somavia who developed the cartridge. It is not known whether rifle was built for Mr. Bulman by Dr. Somavia or whether it was built by a Kamloops area gunsmith. The rifle has the Winchester Model 70 bull gun configuration.

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The cartridge case on the left is a .257 Weatherby for comparison with the .275 Condor on the right.

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Yes, I'm a new member and yes, this is an older thread. Please forgive me if this is a nuisance.

New heavy for caliber bullets as discussed above:

https://www.facebook.com/p/Chinchaga-Bullets-100042806747851/

150 grain and 163 grain available.

This is a Canadian manufacturer.

Also

BLACK HOLE BULLETS

3090 N.CALLARY ST

POST FALLS ID 83854

208-691-8541
(PHONE or TEXT)

blackholebullets@gmail.com

https://blackholebullets.com/


145 grain

I have built and hunted with the .257 Condor cartridge for 30 years. Currently I use the Hornady 138 grain A-Tip successfully harvesting both elk and Mule deer.
 
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