30-30 vs .308, harder to FL size, why? NEW INFO!!

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thepitchedlink

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HI there, started reloading this summer...I 'm using a Lee hand press and have been loading 270 and 30-06 all summer, just started 30-30.. The 30-30 is going in a M94. It is much harder work to resize the 30-30 cases then the 30-06 or 270, I thought is was going to be the other way around. With the 30-30 case being shorter and thinner I would have thought that is would be easier to FL size, but they're a real workout!! Just wondering what the difference might be.... The 30-30 dies are Hornady and the others are Lee, same lube. I get a few slivers of brass and the bottom of some of the 30-30 cases when I resize them....I'm wondering if the older, sloppier action of the 50 year old M94 is just letting the case expand that much more then the tighter 30-06, modern M77 II. Any thoughts? Anyone else notice that 30-30 is a grunt to re-size? thanks
 
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30-30 brass is thinner than 308 brass. it should be the other way around. Maybe you are pushing the shoulder on the 30-30 back quite a ways further?
 
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Since the 30-30 head-spaces on the rim the chambers could be cut on the roomy side. Since the vast majority of 30-30s were and are used by non-reloading, non accuracy intensive, function first kind of guys and the lever-guns don't have any extra seating and extraction power it all works out.
 
resizing 30-30

I think it would be a case shot in an over-sized chamber, too. However, excessive head space would mean the shoulder had to be pushed back further, and a micrometer couldn't check this. If excessive head space on the rifle is the problem, the shoulder of the case should not be pushed back, if you are shooting the reloads in the same rifle.
If the fired case goes back in the rifle OK, then unscrew the sizing die a bit, so it doesn't push the shoulder back, or maybe very little, and try those rounds in the chamber.
I can't understand the slivers of copper, as they shouldn't come from pushing the shoulder back. As suggested, use a micrometer to measure the size of the body of the of a fired one, as compared to a sized one.
You are correct in thinking that a 30-30 should resize easier than a 30-06 or 270.
 
Tough resizing

May be unrelated, but my 303 dies are Hornady and I find them very hard to get the expander back out of the case neck. I've used lee case lube and dry mica lube, but it really makes no difference. I've miked the expander ball and it seems fine. Maybe the steel used, or the finish causes more friction? My other dies are Lee and I don't find them to be difficult at all.
 
More than likely due to the lever actions looser chamber. The lever action rifles tend to require a little more effort at times, but that's OK since the looser chamber aids in reliability in functioning but of coarse not so good for us reloading types:D None of this is a problem just keep loading with the required effort necessary.
bigbull
 
When exactly is the going harder?
I've done all those cases on a Lee hand press in the past. The 308 should be the hardest. Many times harder than the 30-30.
If the trouble is as you open the handles:
Check that your expander ball is correctly positioned in the die, and is clean, and smooth. If the expander ball is too high up in some dies, it can pinch the case between the ball and the die, making things quite difficult. Lube the inside of the necks of the cases.
If the problem is when you are squeezing the handles together, then I suggest you look at the posts above. They've got it covered, except maybe for checking the condition of your dies.

As to lever actions requiring more effort, that's just not so. A lever gun in good shape produces brass that's no harder to deal with than a bolt guns.
 
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if your getting slivers of brass, look for a sharp edge on your sizing die at the mouth. I think your brass may have been used with a hot load also. You are using fired brass from your buddys rifle, yes? I reloaded for your rifle using Bonanza benchrest dies, no problems at all.
 
I noticed you said your 30-30 dies were Hornady. The first New Demention reloading dies they made were extremily undersize and would peel cases like you describe. I polished out 3 sizing dies for members of our gun club. Man are those dies hard. I have sized brass from some very over sized chambers and never had them peel the brass.
 
More info

Hey BuckBrush!! Thanks for the info, it's a great rifle....I measured some cases finally. I measured neck, at the shoulder, just behind the shoulder and case base.

Factory load, neck .3293, shoulder .3931, behind shoulder .3050
Fired case, neck .3334, shoulder .4055, behind shoulder .4075, base .4191
Resized, neck .3251, shoulder .3923, behind shoulder .3941,
Reloaded, neck, .3285, shoulder .3924, behind shoulder .3941
my Lyman book shows neck .333, shoulder .401, base .421

So...the numbers look alright to me, what do you guys think?
The resizing in hard through the whole process, just as the shoulder enters the die...I'm gonna look now at the cases again and see how far the shoulder is being pushed back, but this really feels like a friction in the die issue. I did some 30-06 last week and they go just like butter.....
 
Bit more info...

Alright, just looked at the shoulders...hard to measure so I'm just going by eye...
The fired case and the new factory loaded Winny Super-X look the same, as far as shoulder position, length of neck and base of neck position..BUT the twice fired, resized case has its' shoulder and base of neck farther forward..

So when the case is resized, the shoulder is not being pushed back but pulled forward by the die...by how much? I dunno, maybe 1/64", enough that it can be seen when you hold the 2 side by side. At least this is what it looks like to me..I'll try and find a camera maybe, this making any sense?
 
OK, seeing as I'm quite a chicken sh$$ I put on a pair of big leather gloves and safety glasses and tried a couple of 5.5 g trailboss with 100g speer plinkers...Needless to say my worries of powder detonation where quickly dispelled as the load went "pop", about as loud as a .22, maybe. I'll run a few over the chrony today and see if I can hit a target or two later on.
 
1/ Find a fired case at the range from someone else's 30-30. Try resizing that. If it gives you the same problem then you know it isn't your rifle.

2/ What are you using for lube?

3/ Before you do step 1, place the other-gun's-fired case beside yours on a flat surface and compare them side by side. Is there any visible differences as to shoulder angle, etc?

4/ When you get small slivers of brass, look at the case and see if you can find the shiny area where the brass was cut from by your die, and don't forget to look inside. A spark plug viewer works good for this.

5/ Hope this helps.
 
Two things:
First a lot of 30WCF chambers are actually cut longer at the shoulder than the cartridge is. If this your situation just adjust your die so you don't set the shoulder back from it's fire formed conformation.
Two: lack of lubricant inside the neck can stretch a 30-30 case quite easily especially if the die is sizing it down excessively and/or the expander button is too large. Take a 30 cal. bore brush and lube it lightly and pass it into the case mouth and give it a spin or two. If you are concerned about lube remaining in the neck you can adequately remove it with a bit of alcohol on a Q-tip. Some dies are excessively agressive at squeezing necks down and as a result the button drags too hard when you pass it back up through the case even when the button is correct. Measure your button with a micrometer. About .002 under bullet diameter will give adequate neck tension and of course you should be crimping these as well.
 
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