.300 WSM, Bullet O.A.L./Shape

B

blauber

Regular
Rating - 98.8%
80   1   0
Location
Southern Ontario
Just started loading .300WSM and was disappointed about the magazine limiting my max. COAL. In a new A-Bolt, I can only size to 2.885" (min COAL = 2.860) based on the lenght of the magazine.

I loaded some 180 gr Pro-Hunters (switched from 180 gr Accu-bond) and got this bullet .090" from lands (from .120" with Accu-bonds) with the cartridges barely fitting the magazine.

In an effort to close this gap, I just ordered some 168 gr Berger VLDs. The Bullet OAL is 1.265" (vs. 1.380" with the Accu-bonds). That's a 0.115" difference!!! I know the .300WSM may be fussy, so am attempting to seat the bullet closer to the lands-any thoughts?

I have the Lee reloading manual, but any sweet charges with IMR 4350 would be of help.
 
In an effort to close this gap, I just ordered some 168 gr Berger VLDs. The Bullet OAL is 1.265" (vs. 1.380" with the Accu-bonds). That's a 0.115" difference!!! I know the .300WSM may be fussy, so am attempting to seat the bullet closer to the lands-any thoughts?
Click to expand...

How are you measuring the distance to the lands? Bullet OAL and COAL have little to do with the loaded distance to the lands. Measuring either the bullet OAL or the COAL to the tip of the bullet is a total waste of time. The only time the COAL has any bearing is when you are trying to fit the round into a mag.

You need a bullet comparitor tool that measures to the ogive. That is the only way to measure the loaded "length" and to know how close the bullet is to the lands. A tool like the Hornady Chamber-all gauge is the only accurate way to measure the distance to the lands. If you don't have these two tools, you are really wasting your time with this.
 
I determine distance to lands by chambering a dummy round and noting where the copper is scored. Given this, the COAL to lands, I will seat bullets deeper to control bullet jump to lands (.001 to .050" to etc...). You are right on the bullet OAL-that won't make a difference...just clued in.

I guess I'm a little disappointed that if a mag can only fit a cartridge of specified length, that I can't do anything about it...

Is there bullets out there with a very short distance to ogive with a decent B.C.?
 
blauber said:
Is there bullets out there with a very short distance to ogive with a decent B.C.?
Click to expand...

Sierra Game Kings tend to have a fairly short, fat tangent ogive that may help you get closer to the lands.

Have you tried shooting some of the first loads to see if you have any problems before assuming things are all wrong? The 6.5x55 usually has a very long throat to accomodate 160gr RN bullets, yet they generally shoot well with 140gr spire point bullets that get nowhere near the lands. Considering it is a hunting rifle and not a benchrest unit, shoot it first and see what you have before looking for trouble.

Mark
 
I found this solution...looks doable.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/extended-magazine-box-browning-bolt-51901/

I have just broken in the barrel and have shot 1MOA at 100 yds at 0.090" from lands. It is a hunting rifle, yes, but a long range hunting rifle that will be used for coyotes amoung other smaller targets...not a big picture at 300+ yards.

I love Sierra GK, work great for the .243...will give a try after the Berger evaluation...
 
blauber said:
I have just broken in the barrel and have shot 1MOA at 100 yds at 0.090" from lands. It is a hunting rifle, yes, but a long range hunting rifle that will be used for coyotes amoung other smaller targets...not a big picture at 300+ yards.
Click to expand...

Those will be some messy yotes when hit with a 300WSM. Shouldn't be hard to know if you hit them, though.;)

I hear you on the mag limits, I have a Ruger 77 in .338WM and it accepts nothing longer than the basic 3.340" OAL in the mag. Another 0.200" would sure be nice for seating the long 250gr bullets out a bit.

Mark
 
I determine distance to lands by chambering a dummy round and noting where the copper is scored. Given this, the COAL to lands, I will seat bullets deeper to control bullet jump to lands (.001 to .050" to etc...).
Click to expand...

That is not a very good nor accurate method. I've tried it and if you make that measurement a bunch of times you will discover that problem. As well the bullet will go a fair way into the lands before they make any scrape marks on it.

Is there bullets out there with a very short distance to ogive with a decent B.C.?
Click to expand...

You are asking for two opposing things. The way that a bullet gets a high BC is by having a long nose. And that long nose is what keeps the bullet off the lands when loaded to mag length.

Those will be some messy yotes when hit with a 300WSM. Shouldn't be hard to know if you hit them, though.
Click to expand...

The best .30 cal bullet I ever used on yotes was the Nosler 125gr BT. Kills yotes DEAD!
 
Barnes bullets shoot well with a longer jump to the lands (Barnes recommends approx .070). The 168 TTSX is shooting well in my Sako A7 using RL17 powder. Does not do quite as well in my son's Tikka T3.
 
I think you are spending way too much time and effort trying to seat close to the lands.

Spend more time trying to make your rounds concentric with as little neck and bullet run-out as possible and the jump to the lands will not be a problem.
 
Thanks for the feedback! I am new to reloading but quite analytical about these things...

I don't have concentricity or sophisticated headspace gauges-YET! I have sent Barnes an email on this topic...did Barnes themselves mention that 0.070" was a good starting point?

I have the option to modify the mag by taking out material on a riveted shoulder retainer fitting inside the magazine...the above link did not work, but basically the mod involves taking a file (I will use a Dremel) and making more room by removing 0.010-0.040" of the steel...

It is a hunting rifle, yes, but I'm a sucker for reloading (highly addictive) and getting the best out of an off-the-shelve rifle...to kill coyotes DEAD!
 
blauber said:
I don't have concentricity or sophisticated headspace gauges-YET! I have sent Barnes an email on this topic...did Barnes themselves mention that 0.070" was a good starting point?

Here is a link to their site where they indicate what works with their bullets.
http://www.barnesbullets.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103 (link not working)

Home » Technical » Bullet Talk » TipsTips
Achieving optimum accuracy with Barnes all-copper bullets.

1) Thoroughly clean your barrel with an aggressive copper remover (Barnes CR-10 or Sweets 7.62). Our all-copper Triple Shock X Bullet is made of a softer material than used in conventional jacketed bullets. Be sure to clean any jacket fouling from your barrel before you shoot TSX Bullets. We’ve found that jacket fouling diminishes accuracy with our bullets.

2) Because TSX Bullets are all-copper, they have different pressure characteristics compared to conventional jacketed bullets. In our lab, we have experienced best pressures and accuracy when TSX Bullets are seated .030″ – .070″ off the lands (the grooves or rifling in a barrel.) The majority of the time, we’ve seen optimum accuracy when bullets are seated .050″ off the lands, so start there. Then move backward or forward in .005″ – .010″ increments to find the “sweet spot” for your particular rifle.

Try using a lighter weight bullet.

Because the TSX Bullet retains nearly 100 percent of its original weight and penetrates so well, many shooters select a lighter-weight TSX Bullet over a heavier conventional bullet. The lighter TSX Bullet delivers higher velocites and a flatter trajectory, and outperforms heavier bullets of conventional design.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Hey Blauber,

I'm shooting a 300wsm in a Abolt Browning Mountain Ti, I started out with imr4350 and haven't been to happy with it. I spent alot of time working with that powder and 165 accubonds. Never got under an 11/2" group, found it shot best at a COAL that the mag would alow but ran in to pressure issues at that length. Switched to 180 tsx and improved to and inch. Gave up on the imr4350 and went to the reloader edited**19***edited.... 69grains, 180gr tsx, C.O.A.L 2.825...3 shots touching at 100 yards. I was pretty pleased to see such a sweet group that close to max load. The 4350 would only shoot decent at 2 grains under max.
Food for thought.
 
Last edited:
Barnes bullets shoot well with a longer jump to the lands (Barnes recommends approx .070). The 168 TTSX is shooting well in my Sako A7 using RL17 powder. Does not do quite as well in my son's Tikka T3.
Click to expand...

Barnes recommends starting at .050" off of the lands with the TSX and TTSX.
 
Okay, I also have IMR 4831 which a fellow gun nut recommended so will start with that, and IMR 4350 (just ordered 4 lbs. based on favourable reviews).

For those that are interested, my box magazine was modified by myself with success (I did this very simply today). I took a diamond Dremel bit and removed material forming two channels at the bullet end of the magazine. I am now able to load to a COAL of 2.940" with about .020-.030" headspace to protect bullet tips from the .300WSM heavy recoil. With 168 VLD Bergers enroute, I believe I will be able to jam the lands and back off to a max of 0.120" (as Berger recommends)...this provides the flexibility I originally expected but was disappointed about.

Will let you know next week how IMR 4350 and the 168VLD approach works!
 
Just use it as a single shot and load directly into the chamber, avoiding the magazine, i think that is what the manufacturer had in mind.
 
silhop said:
Hey Blauber,

I'm shooting a 300wsm in a Abolt Browning Mountain Ti, I started out with imr4350 and haven't been to happy with it. I spent alot of time working with that powder and 165 accubonds. Never got under an 11/2" group, found it shot best at a COAL that the mag would alow but ran in to pressure issues at that length. Switched to 180 tsx and improved to and inch. Gave up on the imr4350 and went to the reloader 17.... 69grains, 180gr tsx, C.O.A.L 2.825...3 shots touching at 100 yards. I was pretty pleased to see such a sweet group that close to max load. The 4350 would only shoot decent at 2 grains under max.
Food for thought.
Click to expand...

69.0 grains + RL17 +180 TSX - did you mean 59 grains?

If not, you are absolutely over safe pressures? I got concerned when I got 3285 gps at 66 g or RL17 using 180 TTSX (pressure indicators were non existent to that point).

Richard Mann (of Handloader Magazine) wrote an article about loading with RL17. He suggested you start 5% below the MINIMUM load for IMR4350 data for the bullet you are using, and increase until you see (a) the normal pressure indicators (which he pointed out, are not very a very good/reliabe indicators of being overpressure with this new powder) OR (b) your velocities are 50-100 fps over published max velocities for IMR4350. This advice is in pretty much line with QL data that someone shared with me (61.0 gr of RL17 was the max predicated safe charge predicted for 180 gTTSX+RL17+300 WSM). If you haven't chroneed your loads, you might might to - I expect you will be surprised by what you find.
 
BearClan said:
69.0 grains + RL17 +180 TSX - did you mean 59 grains?

If not, you are absolutely over safe pressures? I got concerned when I got 3285 gps at 66 g or RL17 using 180 TTSX (pressure indicators were non existent to that point).
Click to expand...


My mistake Bearclan, thanks for catching that. I meant to say was 69.0gr+RL19+180tsx @ coal 2.825. 1/2 grain under max as per barnes manual #4

my shoulder is abit tender but I feel like a sniper.
 
Silhop,

Glad to hear RL19 worked for you - it didn't for me. Groups ranged from 1.2" to 1.73" (all I am hoping for is an MOA rifle). Tried Viht550+180 AB, RL19+180 ETips, TTSXs, & MRXs, H4350 + 180TTSXs, RL17+180 TTSXs. Nothing went MOA. Was beginning to think the MOA goal was impossible (have Rem700 XCR RMEF). Then I tried IMR4350 and 4 or 5 groups went MOA - all different charges. Then retried H4350, but with QL data instead of Barnes #3 data (lower Max charge of 63.0g) and got 3 or 4 goups sub-MOA. Then tried IMR4831, and 3 of 5 goups went sub-MOA - the smallest groups was a cloverleaf. Plan to retry RL17 again with QL data (instead of Alliant data). If that doesn't work then I will probably stick with H4350 (not the smallest groups, but POI was virtually the same for all 5 OCW charges of I used.

Sorry - back to topic. Once I find my best powder charge combo, I plan of playing with seating depth. IF THE MOST ACCURATE SEATING DEPTH IS LONGER THAN THE MAGAZINE will allow, I plan on following David Tubbs suggestion (Sierra Advanced Handloading DVD) of keeping the LONG, but must accurate round in the chamber (safety on, of course, bullet color coded), and make the other rounds fit the chamber - You want the first shot to be the most accurate, and it is unlikely you will need/have time for more than two shots where I hunt (Thick, N Ontario bush).
 
Great discussion and I hope you don't mind if I jump in with this question. Same idea but opposite end. The book says for the 168 ttsx a COAL of 2.840, I can only get 2.500 in my Savage internal mag.

Am I going to have issues with over pressure?

Thanks
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom