3006 ackley improved
- Thread starter thinhorn
- Start date
Never owned anything "Ackley" improved, but do have a 30 Gibbs, which is like the 30-06 Ack, except the shoulder is slightly further forward for a wee bit more powder capacity. I do love my Gibbs, It is Very accurate, and is faster with the 180 than is most Factory 300 Win Mag ammo. Regards, Eagleye.
Aye carumba Eagleye! That is indeed impressive. Is that pushing the envelope pretty hard?
In my Nosler manual, it only list a marginal velocity gain of 2985
(Ackley case)over the standard 06 hull doing 2872 with a 180gr slug.
How long a stove pipe have you got on your riggin' ?
In my Nosler manual, it only list a marginal velocity gain of 2985
(Ackley case)over the standard 06 hull doing 2872 with a 180gr slug.
How long a stove pipe have you got on your riggin' ?
Noel,
I have had two 30-06 Imps. The first was a Husqvarna with a 19 1/2" barrel (long story, won't bore you with the details). It got a whopping 50 fps increase with the hottest loads I dared put into it.
The second was a Mauser with a 26 " barrel and it got a bit more than 100 fps over the standard chamber.
Both rifles were chronographed before and after the rechambering job.
I am an Ackley Imp fan, but will never do another one in 30-06.
Ted
I have had two 30-06 Imps. The first was a Husqvarna with a 19 1/2" barrel (long story, won't bore you with the details). It got a whopping 50 fps increase with the hottest loads I dared put into it.
The second was a Mauser with a 26 " barrel and it got a bit more than 100 fps over the standard chamber.
Both rifles were chronographed before and after the rechambering job.
I am an Ackley Imp fan, but will never do another one in 30-06.
Ted
It's so nice to see posts from responsible reloaders. A pretty good rule of thumb is that for every 4% increase in case capacity you will see a potential 1% increase in velocity at the same pressure. For the 30/06 AI then, its approximate 6% increase in case capacity over the 30/06 should result in about an additional 50 fps for most bullet weights. Of course there is nothing stopping an ambitious reloader from stuffing the case full with a faster powder and getting a lot more out of it - if pressure is not a limiting factor. BTW - there is no powder yet available and no magic barrel that will allow a 30/06 case however "improved" (e.g. 30/06 AI, 30 Gibbs) to push a 180gr bullet anywhere close to 3000 fps at sane pressures.
If you must have a 30/06 AI then do it, but the gain in velocity and supposed increase in brass life can hardly be considered worth the cost of rechambering and new dies. If you "need" 3000 fps from a 180gr bullet, a better choice for an improved 30/06 is called the 300 Win Mag.
If you must have a 30/06 AI then do it, but the gain in velocity and supposed increase in brass life can hardly be considered worth the cost of rechambering and new dies. If you "need" 3000 fps from a 180gr bullet, a better choice for an improved 30/06 is called the 300 Win Mag.
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I shoot a Whitworth 30-06 AI, I don't recall the barrel length, think it's 23" tho'. With sane loads I get 2900 fps and change with any 180 gr bullet (yes, chronographed). On the other hand, I don't get those speeds with any 30-06 I own ( four of them) with that bullet weight, so it is an improvement. Not much of one true, but still an improvement. Seeing as how we all seem to get bent out of shape over a 50 fps difference between various cartridges, make of it what you will. I like the cartridge, and it's done for various critters over the years, so I guess it must be OK. - dan
I have been trying to think of what to do with my Custom built 1909 Argentine.
It is in 6mm right now. Been toying with the idea of getting Ron to do her up to a 280 Ackley, the 30 gibbs teases me too, but I didn't think there would be much gain. Perhaps I will go old school and do her up to 300H&H for a classic do all rifle in a beautiful body.
It is in 6mm right now. Been toying with the idea of getting Ron to do her up to a 280 Ackley, the 30 gibbs teases me too, but I didn't think there would be much gain. Perhaps I will go old school and do her up to 300H&H for a classic do all rifle in a beautiful body.
I have a 24" M700 Factory 30-06. It gets 2870 max with the 180 grain Partition and shoots into wonderfully small groups. My Gibbs has a 26" tube and will get 2990 with a safe charge of Norma MRP or RL 22 or 7828. My statement with regards to 300 Win Mag velocities is in reference to Factory loads. With the exception of the Heavy Magnum stuff from Hornady, I have never chronographed any 180 grain load that made 3000 FPS in a 24" barrel. One lot of a popular North American supplier 'graphed only 2825 Avg for 5 shots. I also know that 3100 is usually achievable at safe pressures in the 300 Win. But my Gibbs is very easy on Brass, and primer pockets do not loosen, even after multiple reloads. It is very accurate, and has the lovely habit of shooting 165's, 180's and 200's to the same point of impact at 100 meters. I know it's not a 300 Mag, and don't treat it as such, after all, I have a 30-338, which will outpace the Gibbs by 150-200 FPS. But one needs some kind of a toy to fool around with. FWIW, I make all my Gibbs brass from 35 Whelen brass, since I can just run a Factory new case through the sizing die, load up and shoot. Unlike the 30-06 ackley, you cannot shoot factory ammo in a Gibbs, the shoulder is too far forward. Regards, Eagleye.
I had a 700 SS BDL done in AI, accuracy was good, used a Lee collet dies to neck size and gained right around 100 fps with a 180 gr projectile(on a chrony)24" tube. Still shot good groups with 3006 ammo and was worth it in my eyes.
Also had a 22-250 done in AI 700 VS and it was the bomb on varmints. 38.5 gr RL 15 over a moly coated 55gr Nosler BTBT. You could see the bullet spin in the guts under 200 yards.
Andy
Also had a 22-250 done in AI 700 VS and it was the bomb on varmints. 38.5 gr RL 15 over a moly coated 55gr Nosler BTBT. You could see the bullet spin in the guts under 200 yards.
Andy
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Summerland, BC
Just so non wildcatters don't think we are an insane bunch hell bent on self destruction, let's put things in perspective.
The AI '06 case has identical case capacity to the RSAUM. In fact, the Gibbs in certain brands of brass will be a snick larger. Run both at identical pressures and effective barrel lengths and the same bore resistance (a bit tricky to do but you get the point), voila, same results.
So a 30 Gibbs in a longer match barrel running within spitting distance of a factory WM load (usually underloaded to what the case can really give) is not insane at all. Not SAAMI '06 for sure but the same case in the 270 is run a lot hotter.
Will the '06 case survive at magnum pressures???? Works for me but your mileage may vary.
The world of reloading is filled with huge variance due to respect for old decrepid rifles. Equalize and modernize everything and things come much closer then some would like to admit. Some oldies really step out when new propellants are used.
If you did the same thing to an '06 wouldn't you raise the velocity? Of course. However, I have yet to find a '06 that liked elevated pressures and still shoot accurately. Kind of weird actually.
The limits on any toasty reloading is the primer. That is designed to give some very obvious signs when pressures exceed sane. Then there is the whole action/headspace issue and locked up bolts.
Many modern powders like running at slightly warmer pressures. That is not to say take factory load data and pitch to the wind. Safety is safety. Experience and common sense will help redefine those boundaries. Proceed at your own risk.
Besides, how else do you get a 6BR to give the same performance as a 243???
Jerry
The AI '06 case has identical case capacity to the RSAUM. In fact, the Gibbs in certain brands of brass will be a snick larger. Run both at identical pressures and effective barrel lengths and the same bore resistance (a bit tricky to do but you get the point), voila, same results.
So a 30 Gibbs in a longer match barrel running within spitting distance of a factory WM load (usually underloaded to what the case can really give) is not insane at all. Not SAAMI '06 for sure but the same case in the 270 is run a lot hotter.
Will the '06 case survive at magnum pressures???? Works for me but your mileage may vary.
The world of reloading is filled with huge variance due to respect for old decrepid rifles. Equalize and modernize everything and things come much closer then some would like to admit. Some oldies really step out when new propellants are used.
If you did the same thing to an '06 wouldn't you raise the velocity? Of course. However, I have yet to find a '06 that liked elevated pressures and still shoot accurately. Kind of weird actually.
The limits on any toasty reloading is the primer. That is designed to give some very obvious signs when pressures exceed sane. Then there is the whole action/headspace issue and locked up bolts.
Many modern powders like running at slightly warmer pressures. That is not to say take factory load data and pitch to the wind. Safety is safety. Experience and common sense will help redefine those boundaries. Proceed at your own risk.
Besides, how else do you get a 6BR to give the same performance as a 243???
Jerry
mysticplayer said:
That being the case (and forgetting that the RSAUM is "more efficient", i.e. requires less powder), the best you should be able to achieve, with a maximally "improved" 30/06, even at above normal 30/06 pressures (>63K) using Hodgdon powders is:
180 GR. SFT SCIR (Maximum Loads) DIA. .308 COL: 2.825"
H4350 - 61.6C - 2907 fps - 63,500 PSI
H414 - 60.5 - 2935 fps - 63,400 PSI
VARGET - 54.0 - 2842 fps - 63,600 PSI
H4895 - 51.5 - 2823 fps - 64,700 PSI
Here's what Alliant has for the 300 WSM (a larger capacity case than the RSAUM):
Reloder 19 - 68.0 - 2,978 fps - 60,500 PSI
Lest you think that a slower powder should do better, the powder is already compressed with H4350, so H4831, RL22, etc., would underperform the top Hodgdon load. I don't dispute that some people get a chronographed 3000+ fps with a 180gr bullet, but it is not at pressures for which their gun was designed.
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Andy, you have forgotten all these very important variables that change loading results tremendously:
1) Barrel length 26" vs 24"
2) Bore condition - The gibbs is in a very smooth match barrel (I know as it used to be my rifle)
3) Different bullets which have different bearing surface and jacket alloys and internal construction and diameter. all affecting pressures and velocities
4) Different powders. Not just slower but different burn rates and pressure curves.
5) Different primers. Recents test results show that primers can affect final chamber pressure by 5000PSI but yield the same muzzle velocity. How's that for a free lunch?
6) Slight difference in pressure. yes, the hodgdon limit is 63,500psi, but what did that curve look like. You can use pistol powder and slow rifle powder to reach the same ultimate pressure but the curves and velocities will be vastly different. Then you have a load that maybe is at 65000psi. Nothing catastrophic but enough to yield a bit more velocity.
7) Differences in chronograph results.
8) And so on and so on...
Case effeciency has been debated and really ends up being a great point for marketers to sell rifles. Too many overlapping examples of long skinny doing the same or better then short fat. The rare exception but overal, not the panacea some would believe.
Still boils down to matching available powders with a bore/bullet weight combo in a barrel length to reach an expected goal. Change these goals and the 'gem' becomes a dog. Welcome to wildcatting.
So having a Gibbs reach 55fps more then what a factory example prints does not concern me in the least. Just compare a few factory rifle with the same box of ammo and you will easily see that much difference between the rifles.
Look up some other factory load or manual and their velocities vary alot too. In general, Hodgdon printed velocities are on the slow side of norm. Not sure why but compare data from other manf in a variety of cartridges side by side and you will see what I mean.
Jerry
PS in your WSM example above, take that load to 63,500psi and you will easily exceed 3000fps. Probably reach 3050 to 3065fps. Now that is smoking. So why the sig. difference in loading pressure. Again, another quirk I don't understand. Were they trying to stay within the expected max velocity of sub 3000fps?
1) Barrel length 26" vs 24"
2) Bore condition - The gibbs is in a very smooth match barrel (I know as it used to be my rifle)
3) Different bullets which have different bearing surface and jacket alloys and internal construction and diameter. all affecting pressures and velocities
4) Different powders. Not just slower but different burn rates and pressure curves.
5) Different primers. Recents test results show that primers can affect final chamber pressure by 5000PSI but yield the same muzzle velocity. How's that for a free lunch?
6) Slight difference in pressure. yes, the hodgdon limit is 63,500psi, but what did that curve look like. You can use pistol powder and slow rifle powder to reach the same ultimate pressure but the curves and velocities will be vastly different. Then you have a load that maybe is at 65000psi. Nothing catastrophic but enough to yield a bit more velocity.
7) Differences in chronograph results.
8) And so on and so on...
Case effeciency has been debated and really ends up being a great point for marketers to sell rifles. Too many overlapping examples of long skinny doing the same or better then short fat. The rare exception but overal, not the panacea some would believe.
Still boils down to matching available powders with a bore/bullet weight combo in a barrel length to reach an expected goal. Change these goals and the 'gem' becomes a dog. Welcome to wildcatting.
So having a Gibbs reach 55fps more then what a factory example prints does not concern me in the least. Just compare a few factory rifle with the same box of ammo and you will easily see that much difference between the rifles.
Look up some other factory load or manual and their velocities vary alot too. In general, Hodgdon printed velocities are on the slow side of norm. Not sure why but compare data from other manf in a variety of cartridges side by side and you will see what I mean.
Jerry
PS in your WSM example above, take that load to 63,500psi and you will easily exceed 3000fps. Probably reach 3050 to 3065fps. Now that is smoking. So why the sig. difference in loading pressure. Again, another quirk I don't understand. Were they trying to stay within the expected max velocity of sub 3000fps?
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Jerry,
I am in violent agreement with you! All true, but how can one know all of the correct combinations and resulting pressures, etc. You can't, unless you do the tests with pressure testing equipment. So you must concede that you have been guessing and have been lucky so far. Even measuring case head expansion only tells you when you have exceeded factory pressure, but not by how much.
So poor schmucks like us without pressure equipment rely on what we know and need to sometimes err on the low side. That having been said, I strongly doubt that any improved 30/06 could push any 180 gr bullet past 3000 fps at or below 65K psi. Can't prove it, but neither has anyone disproved it.
I am in violent agreement with you! All true, but how can one know all of the correct combinations and resulting pressures, etc. You can't, unless you do the tests with pressure testing equipment. So you must concede that you have been guessing and have been lucky so far. Even measuring case head expansion only tells you when you have exceeded factory pressure, but not by how much.
So poor schmucks like us without pressure equipment rely on what we know and need to sometimes err on the low side. That having been said, I strongly doubt that any improved 30/06 could push any 180 gr bullet past 3000 fps at or below 65K psi. Can't prove it, but neither has anyone disproved it.
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Andy, that's is wildcatting in a nutshell. Work up slowly and stay clear of obvious pressure signs. You can monitor velocity and other physical parameters but they are indeed, only estimates.
However, there is a significant buffer between SAAMI pressures and KABOOM. Many of the basic pressure signs will show up well before destruction occurs, especially if loads are worked up properly and slowly.
Most primers will flow badly around 70Kpsi and primer pockets will expand too much to hold a primer above that. Actions are proofed at around 120Kpsi and do not blow up.
Non BR actions will lock up solid and the case will still be intact. You would really want that Darwin award to add more powder. Pretty stupid to have gotten that far to begin with.
I bet if we pressure tested a bunch of rifles, many "safe" loads would exceed SAAMI specs. That is why load manuals can exist. Even with all the variables that exist, we still function within safe boundaries of the action and barrel.
Handloading can be dangerous at any level. That is why there are load manuals and proper procedures to follow. Wildcatting is about coming up with new ways and to push the boundaries. For the most part, that is done safely as wildcatters tend to be very experienced and knowledgeable handloaders and are well aware of the risks.
So without pressure testing equipment, no one can tell you if their loads are within SAAMI specs of not. No one, no matter what technique they use. There would have to be assumptions. These are usually right, but still, as educated guess. The number of reloading injuries is very low (at least nothing I have read) so one can assume that the process we use does work.
Whether one chooses to push the envelop or even to reload, is entirely up to them. Be smart, be safe.
Jerry
However, there is a significant buffer between SAAMI pressures and KABOOM. Many of the basic pressure signs will show up well before destruction occurs, especially if loads are worked up properly and slowly.
Most primers will flow badly around 70Kpsi and primer pockets will expand too much to hold a primer above that. Actions are proofed at around 120Kpsi and do not blow up.
Non BR actions will lock up solid and the case will still be intact. You would really want that Darwin award to add more powder. Pretty stupid to have gotten that far to begin with.
I bet if we pressure tested a bunch of rifles, many "safe" loads would exceed SAAMI specs. That is why load manuals can exist. Even with all the variables that exist, we still function within safe boundaries of the action and barrel.
Handloading can be dangerous at any level. That is why there are load manuals and proper procedures to follow. Wildcatting is about coming up with new ways and to push the boundaries. For the most part, that is done safely as wildcatters tend to be very experienced and knowledgeable handloaders and are well aware of the risks.
So without pressure testing equipment, no one can tell you if their loads are within SAAMI specs of not. No one, no matter what technique they use. There would have to be assumptions. These are usually right, but still, as educated guess. The number of reloading injuries is very low (at least nothing I have read) so one can assume that the process we use does work.
Whether one chooses to push the envelop or even to reload, is entirely up to them. Be smart, be safe.
Jerry
I believe the 30 Gibbs has 73.5 gr. cap. The Gibbs has a shorter neck and less taper than AI. I have 2 30 Gibbs rifles and shoot 180 Horn @ 3000fs. I am still using Herters brass I formed 25 yr. ago. I would think 'excess' pressure would have shown up by now. Mark
