.303 British Lee Enfield mk.4 brass shoulder mark

[mungojeerie]

Hello everyone,
I'm fairly new to reloading. I had a friend that used to reload some ammo for me, but have recently decided to do it myself.
That being said I figured rather than reload just for that one caliber, I would reload for most of the ones I own.

One caliber is .303 British, I have a lot of once fired brass I saved up over the years. It's from Winchester SuperX 180gr soft points. My rifle is a Lee Enfield mk.4 thats been sportsterized.

In cleaning, inspecting and annealing the brass I've noticed that they all have a mark/crimp on the shoulder, this does not appear on the cartridge prior to firing so it obviously occurs when the cartridge is fired in the chamber.

My question is can I still reuse this brass and reload out of it?

Any ideas on the cause? Is it something that can be eliminated during the reloading process? All of this brass is once fired from the previously mentioned factory cartridges.

Thank-you in advance for your time.

 

[Potashminer]

If you say ALL of your once fired brass have that deformity, and all were factory rounds - then I would guess that you have damage - a ding - taken out of your chamber - would be very evident, if viewed with a bore scope. I have my doubts if that chamber can be re-filled, or "smoothed out" - possibly having the barrel set back one thread and re-ream a new chamber? As far as that brass - that spot has been "stretched" - no doubt a trip through a sizing die will likely smooth it out - but is likely the point that will "blow out" on a future firing.

As shown in your picture, your chamber has had material removed from part of the shoulder area - possibly rust? Possibly a mechanical thing inserted in there?

Is a thing that I have observed - many new-to-reloading think that 303 British is just run of the mill - but it is a "rimmed" cartridge - and a bit different about headspace setting, etc. compared to 30-06 or 7.62 NATO, etc. Due to "train loads" of sub-standard ammo made for British military in WWI - a large number of formerly British military rifles had their chambers enlarged - is of no consequence for "headspace" since that is just for the room of a rimmed cartridge's rim - but the enlarged chamber body was a balancing act to allow that sub-standard round to fire once - hopefully without bursting. That once fired case will be significantly distended along it's body - apparently the idea was to be way-out at the far end of the stretching capacity of that brass - likely beyond it's elastic capacity to return - and NOT to burst on that first firing - and may or may not be able to be reloaded to fire a second time - was not a concern for the designers at the time. Is like the deformity that you show - obviously a new case fired once and did not burst - I am not sure if that can be reloaded for a second or subsequent firing.

From your picture - that protrusion will not allow that fired cartridge to be re-chambered in your rifle - unless exactly aligned like it was when fired - "re-sizing" usually does away with any deformities like that - so resizing down to that shoulder will remove that bulge - but remains to be seen if that brass will still retain it's strength, at that location, for a future firing

 

[tiriaq]

Looks as if the chamber got scored with a screwdriver or similar implement. Maybe digging out a separated case. Doubt that it is a safety issue. The cost of setting the barrel back and recutting the chamber is not insignificant. You'd wind up with a nice, clean SAAMI spec. chamber, which could be considered to be better than the generous issue one. I wouldn't even consider having this work done unless the bore is crisp and the rifle is a good shooter.

 

[mungojeerie]

Hi Tiriaq & Potashminer,
Thank you for your in depth replies. This rifle was a hand me down from my grandfather, it was my first big caliber rifle and many of my first animals were taken with it. It has sentimental value to me, but not something I would consider getting costly repairs done to. When I was given the rifle I had a gunsmith drill and tap it for a rail so I could mount a scope, at that time the gunsmith said the rifling was in remarkable condition still.

I do not plan to shoot it much, though occasionally I get the inkling to take it on a nostalgia hunt. The main appeal to me for reloading this rifle would be the superior selection of projectiles. It has been quite difficult to find hunting ammo as of late but even prior all that I really ever found was winchester 180gr soft points.
I will resize a case tonight and see if smooths that spot out and gently see if it will easily chamber.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

If you say ALL of your once fired brass have that deformity, and all were factory rounds - then I would guess that you have damage - a ding - taken out of your chamber - would be very evident, if viewed with a bore scope. I have my doubts if that chamber can be re-filled, or "smoothed out" - possibly having the barrel set back one thread and re-ream a new chamber? As far as that brass - that spot has been "stretched" - no doubt a trip through a sizing die will likely smooth it out - but is likely the point that will "blow out" on a future firing.

Setting back and re-chambering the barrel would cost more than the rifle is worth. IF the chamber is damaged, then the rifle is garbage or a wall hanger due to the economics of fixing the problem.

Yes, the case splitting at the shoulder on a subsequent firing would be my primer concern. The pressure within a rifle case is no joke and not to be taken lightly. Honestly for the ca. $300 a sporterized LE can be had for, I'd just abandon that rifle and get another. Or suck it up and buy a full wood rifle and enjoy the rifle as it was originally built.

Hi Tiriaq & Potashminer,
Thank you for your in depth replies. This rifle was a hand me down from my grandfather, it was my first big caliber rifle and many of my first animals were taken with it. It has sentimental value to me, but not something I would consider getting costly repairs done to. When I was given the rifle I had a gunsmith drill and tap it for a rail so I could mount a scope, at that time the gunsmith said the rifling was in remarkable condition still.

I do not plan to shoot it much, though occasionally I get the inkling to take it on a nostalgia hunt. The main appeal to me for reloading this rifle would be the superior selection of projectiles. It has been quite difficult to find hunting ammo as of late but even prior all that I really ever found was winchester 180gr soft points.
I will resize a case tonight and see if smooths that spot out and gently see if it will easily chamber.

As mentioned above, if the brass has been folded or nicked or otherwise compromised, it will have a large chance of failure on a subsequent firing. The 50,000 psi or whatever a 303 runs at, is extremely dangerous to your face and eyes. IF it bleeds out the chamber it can carry small metal fragments with it, at very high speeds. That is a super easy way to lose and eye.

A sized case will chamber, that's not the issue. Before you even try it, you need to determine a number of measurements.

When it comes to reloading 303, you need to figure out if the headspace (to the rim) is in spec and what the "headspace" to the shoulder is, in order to set your sizing die. Cases sized too short, even with a rifle that is good for rim headspace, run the risk of case head separation, due to the mechanics of a rimed case.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

Do you have some loaded factory ammo?

Clean the chamber out as well as you can. Then have a look into the chamber to see if there is an obvious damage at the case shoulder. A flashlight will help but it may not be easy to see without a bore scope.

Fire a couple of factory rounds and carefully extract the cases so you can figure out if the chamber is producing that damage to the case and where it is located around the shoulder (clock direction).

BEFORE you start into reloading you need to know if the bolt is headspacing correctly. You also need a conventional headspace measuring tool to measure the length of the chamber (by measuring the length of fired cases - to the shoulder), so you won't be sizing the cases down too far.

If you are beginning to get the idea that reloading for a 303 LE is a big PIA, you would be correct. It is quite different from modern rifles.

 

[supernova]

I'd try a few. Doubtful it will be much of an issue. I've reloaded range pickup that was run over, crushed closed and had creases in the brass. Still haven't had a failure. I'd keep an eye on it but not worry too much. You're as likely to toss brass as necks start to split as to have them popping in that spot.

 

[bdft]

Looks like someone used a square Easy-Out to remove a separated case. I would reload it and shoot it. The shoulder might split but that's not the end of the world. It's not going to blow up your rifle or anything like that. It wouldn't hurt to have a look with a borescope.

 

[mungojeerie]

Thanks for the comments, not sure what I will do. May just reload with new brass as once offs? Like I said, this gun is not original and I have no interest in owning another of the same caliber etc, nor can I justify a big expense to repair it. I only have this rifle as it has sentimental value. It was given to my by my grandpa, 2 weeks after he gave it to me I shot my first deer with it and a week after that my grandpa passed away.

I do not own a proper borescope but with what I do have I can see what appears to be a damaged spot.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

Single use brass will be fine. Just not sure I'd reload that brass.

 

[cosmic]

That rifle was/is a very nice sporter made by the likes of Churchill or Cogswell and Harrison. It would appear that something is protruding into the chamber, rather than a gouge? If this were the case, perhaps a probe of some sort could be used to ascertain if it could be removed - brass or hardwood dowel? I think it warrants a bit of further investigation.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

That rifle was/is a very nice sporter made by the likes of Churchill or Cogswell and Harrison. It would appear that something is protruding into the chamber, rather than a gouge? If this were the case, perhaps a probe of some sort could be used to ascertain if it could be removed - brass or hardwood dowel? I think it warrants a bit of further investigation.

Give that concept a little thought. Ask yourself, where would that something come from and how would it arrive in the position it occupies? Take a look at the dimensions of the rifle barrel around the chamber and ask yourself how much force would be required to insert an object into that location in the manner in which you have suggested? Now, ask yourself, if you are correct and an object solid enough to have been jammed though 1/3 of an inch of solid steel could be easily removed and if removing it would render the firearm safe to fire?

 

[cosmic]

I would ask myself that whatever it is, seems to be lodged against the shoulder of the chamber. Perhaps a piece of a formerly stuck case? Inserting a fresh shell would tend to press the debris against the shoulder, leaving it in-situ. I'm asking myself if you understood my original post?

 

[bush1]

I would ask myself that whatever it is, seems to be lodged against the shoulder of the chamber. Perhaps a piece of a formerly stuck case? Inserting a fresh shell would tend to press the debris against the shoulder, leaving it in-situ. I'm asking myself if you understood my original post?

Agreed, by the pic, it looks like there’s there’s something in the chamber causing the indentation rather than a gouge in the chamber. The pic sort of looks like that.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

I would ask myself that whatever it is, seems to be lodged against the shoulder of the chamber. Perhaps a piece of a formerly stuck case? Inserting a fresh shell would tend to press the debris against the shoulder, leaving it in-situ. I'm asking myself if you understood my original post?

The chamber walls should be pretty smooth, hard steel. There is nothing for a shard of brass to adhere to. A gouge in the steel is much more likely. It would push up a protrusion.

 

[tiriaq]

Look at the photo of the fired case. Look at the photo of the chamber. The shape matches the tip of a screwdriver. Dollars to donuts a screwdriver was used to dig out the forward part of a separated case.
If fired cases extract easily, shoot it. If you want the mark to go away, set the barrel back one turn and ream the chamber a bit. That or a new barrel are the only repairs possible.
If it were my rifle, I'd set the barrel back - but I have to equipment to do that and it would only cost me my time.

 

[Ganderite]

The 303 headspaces on the rim, not the shoulder, so you can cut the shoulder a tad deeper.

You could put a reamer in there, by hand on a T-handle, and kiss that shoulder to clean it up.

Try a 303 reamer first. If that does not work, try some other reamer that would reach the chamber shoulder.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

The 303 headspaces on the rim, not the shoulder, so you can cut the shoulder a tad deeper.

You could put a reamer in there, by hand on a T-handle, and kiss that shoulder to clean it up.

Try a 303 reamer first. If that does not work, try some other reamer that would reach the chamber shoulder.

That is an excellent point. This would seem to be a downright sensible solution. Of course it requires a ca. $300 reamer. :O

 

[Ganderite]

That is an excellent point. This would seem to be a downright sensible solution. Of course it requires a ca. $300 reamer. :O

True, but most of us have our owner reamers or know someone who does. A reamer kiss with a T handle is a 5 minute job. 4 minutes to take the action out of the stock.

 

[bearhunter]

Give that concept a little thought. Ask yourself, where would that something come from and how would it arrive in the position it occupies? Take a look at the dimensions of the rifle barrel around the chamber and ask yourself how much force would be required to insert an object into that location in the manner in which you have suggested? Now, ask yourself, if you are correct and an object solid enough to have been jammed though 1/3 of an inch of solid steel could be easily removed and if removing it would render the firearm safe to fire?

The firearm will be safe to fire if that protrusion is removed.

I bought a Norwegian conversion of the capture 98s which they converted to 30-06 and later to 7.62 Nato. I never shot it and eventually sold it to a local collector, who wanted to use it in milsurp matches at one of the local clubs.

He brought it back to me, with a case that had been fired from it with a similar dent in the shoulder as that on the OP's case.

I had an old reamer and gently turned it into the chamber and a bit of metal broke off. It appeared to be a chip from the shoulder edge of another reamer.

The pock mark was only a few thou deep so I cleaned up the existing chamber with a Palma Match reamer I picked up from a CGNer.

The headspace was now within .002 of maximum and the bolt almost closed on the No/Go guage but was still OK.

The buyer was happy with the results and all was well.

However, the chamber damage in the photo looks more like an indentation, rather than a protrusion.

IMHO, the only fix is to set back the shoulder enough, likely one full turn would be best, to bring the knox back to TDC and then recut the chamber.

IMHO, that rifle is worth the cost. Especially if it has deep sentimental value.

As far as reamers go, most smiths have the 303 Brit reamer in their tool box. Depending on the smith, that job shouldn't run more than $150 to complete properly.

The biggest issue if finding a smith with the tools needed to take the barrel off that receiver, which is very easily twisted if it isn't done properly.

Seeing as the damage is on the outer edge of the shoulder, Ganderite's solution would work quite well, except for the shoulder diameter of the 303 Brit is around .400 diameter and nothing else comes close enough to be able to use the existing dies.

He could clean up the area with a 7x57 Mauser reamer and be within appx .015 of the existing chamber and likely that would clean it up and leave him with a shoulder that is advanced as it would have to be run in to a depth to clean it all up.

This would still allow him to use his existing dies for reloading, if he only partially neck resizes the cases, which IMHO would be a good thing to do with any 303 British.

Cut down take off barrels are usually under $50 at gunshows or in smith's bins. Six of one, half dozen of the other.