32-40 cast bullet problem

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lyktohunt

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I tried some 170gr cast bullets in my Win 94 and was disapointed to say the least. First load started at 23 gr IMR3031 result st 25 yard was two almost touching and one about 8" away next was 24 gr two about 2"apart cant find the third, next was 25 gr ,cant find any holes. I have shot jacketed bullets from this gun and found it to be accurate.
My thought was the lower velocity was better and that by going up in velocity maybe the lead was stripping off the bullets and leading the bore, just a guess. These bullets from the Bullet Barn do not have a gas check.
Can the choice of powder have that much of an affect on these bullets.
The bore on my rifle is pretty good for a 1896 rifle and like I said jacketed bullets shot good.
Maybe I will try backing the charge off a couple of grains more (they are pretty slow now already, but might be worth a try)
Any words of advise from any cast bullet loaders out there.
 
Gas checks should improve your groups. Supposedly they stop the powder from melting the base of your bullet. Try shooting a slug into something you can recover it from and inspect the base for deformation. You need to size your cast bullets to suit your bore. These old guns vary in bore diameter. Some will shoot an oversized slug better,some an undersized. You have to tinker abit. Also when shooting don't let the bore heat up. Space your shots. My 32-40 also shoots good the first two or three shots with either cast or jacketed but once the barrel heats up my groups tend to open up too.
 
IMHO...Those are fairly heavy loads for the 32/40 actually, for those velocities, I would suggest a medium hard cast bullet, with gas check, sized .001" over bore dia.... If you don't want to slug your bore, try .322" with your loads. A better approach may be to use a lighter load to begin with and a plain base bullet, sized to .321" or .322", and cast med. soft. My favorite load for this is a 200 gr. flat point with a full case of 3fg. black powder or 13 grs. of AA#9, or 16 grs. of H-4227.
In a cartridge like the .32/40, hard cast bullets that aren't a perfect fit, will lead your barrel, give poor accuracy, and may even be unstable in flight and keyhole target.
Over the years I have been able to develop accurate loads in the .32/40 through the use of a very accurate orig. Win. 1885, heavy barreled rifle. When I use my .32/40 leverguns, there is more guess work in load development because they are not nearly as accurate as the single shot, with which I can load bullets well out into the rifling or breech seat the bullets.
 
The OP said---"I tried some 170gr cast bullets in my Win 94 and was disapointed to say the least. First load started at 23 gr IMR3031 result st 25 yard was two almost touching and one about 8" away next was 24 gr two about 2"apart cant find the third, next was 25 gr ,cant find any holes. I have shot jacketed bullets from this gun and found it to be accurate."
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I guess I am repeating what Ben has said, but you couldn't have better confirmation that you have an over load.
Overloads with cast bullets are different to over loading a jacketed bullet. I once did a lot of experimenting with a 30-06 and cast bullets, in the winter. I was the only one shooting cast, so in the spring I picked up a lot of cast bullets that I had shot.
These were all gas check bullets, but quite a few had a "gas leak" rut, down the side of the bullet, about as large as a kitchen match wood. Obviously, my overloads were just blowing past the bullet and just as obviously, that would account for the flyers.
Use faster powder. Lyman, for example, states a maximum load of 14 grains of 2400, with a gas check bullet in your calibre.
 
H4831 said:
The OP said---"I tried some 170gr cast bullets in my Win 94 and was disapointed to say the least. First load started at 23 gr IMR3031 result st 25 yard was two almost touching and one about 8" away next was 24 gr two about 2"apart cant find the third, next was 25 gr ,cant find any holes. I have shot jacketed bullets from this gun and found it to be accurate."
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I guess I am repeating what Ben has said, but you couldn't have better confirmation that you have an over load.
Overloads with cast bullets are different to over loading a jacketed bullet. I once did a lot of experimenting with a 30-06 and cast bullets, in the winter. I was the only one shooting cast, so in the spring I picked up a lot of cast bullets that I had shot.
These were all gas check bullets, but quite a few had a "gas leak" rut, down the side of the bullet, about as large as a kitchen match wood. Obviously, my overloads were just blowing past the bullet and just as obviously, that would account for the flyers.
Use faster powder. Lyman, for example, states a maximum load of 14 grains of 2400, with a gas check bullet in your calibre.
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Thanks guys I value your advise and will try lighter loads first as at this point I have only the one powder that may be sort of suitable and only the commercial bullets that advertise them being .322.
I did use some load data that suggested a starting load at 25gr, so I thought I was safe starting at 23 gr.Anyways back to the bench. I do have some BLC2 powder that I have been using in my 30-30 and maybe there is some load data to try with that unless you do not advise that.
And again Thanks
 
One thing I do when my cast bullet rifles start to suffer from leading is to fire a couple of jacketed rounds through them then clean them. The jacketed bullets scrape out a lot of lead. Found this out years ago when I was sighting in my Marlin in 44 mag. and had the target against a snow pile. I was using 214 grn cast bullets and had a couple factory 240's left that I wanted to use up. I found the slugs in the spring when the pile melted and the jacketed bullets were almost silver with lead. Now I fire a jacketed slug through my guns after about 20 rounds of cast. Sure beats scrubbing. If you suspect your rifle barrel is leading this is a sure-fire way to find out.
 
My 30-06 barrel never leaded, even when the loads blew past teh bullet.
However, I may be out to lunch on your loading, lyktohunt. I looked again at the Lyman cast loading book. For the 32-40 they show only Unique, 2400 and 4759. However, the 32 Winchester Special isn't that much different and for both a 160 and a 180 cast, they show from 23 to 33 grains of 3031.
It may be well worth keeping on with 3031, trying lighter loads and maybe even going higher than you were.
In spite of all the good reports we hear about cast bullets in the 30-30, I never really got a load I was proud of. It was much easier to get a good load with the 30-06 with cast bullets. I tried many different kinds of powder and a powder that gave quite good steady loads with various amounts, until I got too high, was, "drum roll," H4831!
 
ben hunchak said:
IMHO...Those are fairly heavy loads for the 32/40 actually, for those velocities, I would suggest a medium hard cast bullet, with gas check, sized .001" over bore dia.... If you don't want to slug your bore, try .322" with your loads. A better approach may be to use a lighter load to begin with and a plain base bullet, sized to .321" or .322".
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exactly my thoughts if you can, try slugging the barrel. shooting an undersized bullet will result in allot of leading and accuracy will go south real fast.
better to go at least .001" larger than your slugged size.

do you know roughly at what velocities your shooting those loads at? you may be very surprised after you chrony them.
as far as i remember the bullets from the bullet barn are made of a hard alloy and can be pushed to some high pressure.
are you using those loads with or without gas checks?
a nice powder to consider is IMR 4759, should work nicely with your cartridge.
 
Do not have a chrony so I do not know actual velocitys and the bullets do not have a gas check.
I loaded up a few rounds each with IMR4227 12 13 and 14 grains and one load with IMR3031 20GR and gave it a damn good scrubbing, off to the range tomorrow. the bullet barn advertises these bullets at .322
 
lyktohunt said:
Do not have a chrony so I do not know actual velocitys and the bullets do not have a gas check.
I loaded up a few rounds each with IMR4227 12 13 and 14 grains and one load with IMR3031 20GR and gave it a damn good scrubbing, off to the range tomorrow. the bullet barn advertises these bullets at .322
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Well back to the saga, I tried the above loads with some success however still far from accurate at least this time all were on the paper.
I guess next step will be crown the barrel and slug it to find maybe a better bullet size or use gas checks.
It sort of looks like the bullets are not hitting the paper square on (upset in flight) not exactly tumbling but may be they would be farther out.
 
lyktohunt said:
Well back to the saga, I tried the above loads with some success however still far from accurate at least this time all were on the paper.
I guess next step will be crown the barrel and slug it to find maybe a better bullet size or use gas checks.
It sort of looks like the bullets are not hitting the paper square on (upset in flight) not exactly tumbling but may be they would be farther out.
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Before I did any of that, I would get some factory loaded ammunition and try those. If it shoots jacketed loads satisfactory, then your trouble is not the fault of the rifle. If you reload jacketed bullets to try, load them to factory loaded ammunition standards, which will be listed in your loading manual as, "Maximun load."
(Remember I told you I had lots of trouble trying to get a model 94, 30-30 to shoot cast bullets.)
 
H4831 said:
Before I did any of that, I would get some factory loaded ammunition and try those. If it shoots jacketed loads satisfactory, then your trouble is not the fault of the rifle. If you reload jacketed bullets to try, load them to factory loaded ammunition standards, which will be listed in your loading manual as, "Maximun load."
(Remember I told you I had lots of trouble trying to get a model 94, 30-30 to shoot cast bullets.)
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I have used factory loaded jacketed bullets and found them to be accurate.
The main reason I want to get this old gal to shoot cast is I want to use it in cowboy shoots and I wanted it to be easier on her with light lead loads.
 
lyktohunt said:
I have used factory loaded jacketed bullets and found them to be accurate.
The main reason I want to get this old gal to shoot cast is I want to use it in cowboy shoots and I wanted it to be easier on her with light lead loads.
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OK then, but there won't be anything wrong with the rifle, in that case.
Diameter of the bullet would appear something to work on.
I found with the 30-06 when I was sizing to .308, I had so-so accuracy. A friend said to try them just as they came out of the mold. They came out of the mold I had about .313, but if I could get them in the case and in the chamber, they shot a bit better than the sized ones.
I bought another mold, undersized to come out at .308, but they acually came out about .311 and they shot real good. but in the 30-30, they seemed to raise high pressure, when I was loading full power loads.
However, you don't want high power, so I'm sure you will find a good load at lower power.
 
Find out how hard those cast bullets are, soft bullets fill the bore better on ignition and should yield better accuracy/stability, there is no need for a cast bullet to be harder then 10-12 bhn in the 32/40.
 
Where are you getting the data from?
The .32-40 uses .320" or .321" bullets. Hornady makes a 170 grain .321" FP. So does Speer. Sierra doesn't make one at all.
"...with IMR4227..." My Lyman book gives 14.0 as the starting load for a 170 grain jacketed bullet. 25.0 of IMR3031. 12.0 of IMR4227 is for a 164 grain cast bullet with gas check.
E-mail me if you want the data. Only 3 bullet weights. One jacketed, 2 cast. Both cast bullet need gas checks.
 
sunray said:
Where are you getting the data from?
The .32-40 uses .320" or .321" bullets. Hornady makes a 170 grain .321" FP. So does Speer. Sierra doesn't make one at all.
"...with IMR4227..." My Lyman book gives 14.0 as the starting load for a 170 grain jacketed bullet. 25.0 of IMR3031. 12.0 of IMR4227 is for a 164 grain cast bullet with gas check.
E-mail me if you want the data. Only 3 bullet weights. One jacketed, 2 cast. Both cast bullet need gas checks.
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The data for the cast bullet diameter is from the Bullet Barn literature showing .322. the load data is I think from a Lyman publication showing a cast bullet of 164gr with gas check(mine do not have a gas check) starting load of IMR4227-12gr and a jacketed bullet of 170gr using a starting load of 25gr of IMR3031
 
(mine do not have a gas check)


Thre's your problem with the higher loads you were trying, at least.
 
BHN 25 on a 32/40 bullet? and no gas check on the same bullet/design, you really have to wonder how much testing is/was done with those hard bullets in the .32/40,esp. black powder, the powder that made this round famous for accuracy.
 
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