.38 S+W load

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MattE93

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I just purchased a 1941 dated, Canadian issued S&W M&P “pre-victory” revolver in .38-200 (.38 S&W) with a 6” barrel. The factory ammo for these being a little pricey I plan to reload for it. Does anyone have a load for this round out of a similar revolver?

As I understand the factory stuff is under charged to be safe in early 20th century break actions so I think a handload could push the performance a little higher on this round but I am having trouble finding load data that more closely matches the WW2 loading.

Additionally, could I load .357 jacketed projectiles or am I stuck loading the .361 LRN projectiles

Thanks!
 
Let me get this straight.....
You want to load a jacketed (harder) bullet of smaller diameter to higher velocities ( and pressure), expecting to get increased performance with acceptable accuracy and without damaging the gun or the shooter. This information isn't in the loading manuals for a reason, the same reason that no experienced loader would provide you with a magic formula to accomplish your goals. Good luck.
 
Thanks for the help....

I don’t want to make a dangerous load by any means but the British did load a jacketed bullet in these revolvers during the war. I was just wondering there was something equivalent I could load now a days. I also don’t want an over pressured round but I know for a fact that factory loads are weak so that they can be used in early break actions as well as the more robust later century swing action. Clearly then the swing action can handle a higher pressure than the factory loads are giving
 
In the Ken Waters Pet Loads book they have a huge section of 38 S+W data for strong solid frame guns.I can mail you the data if you like PM me and I will photocopy it.Your's is a solid frame model with swing out cylinder as opposed to the hinge top break action model correct?
 
I think you're looking at this backwards. The cartridge was not downloaded, it was made to spec according to British proof law. This cartridge was designed for those old revolver designs, there were eventually other, more robust cartridges designed for the more modern stronger revolver designs. The original cartridge is correct, but your S & W revolver is over built for this round. Don't try to make a 38 Special out of a 38 S&W, if you aren't satisfied with S&W performance, get a 38 Special. The results will be much more satisfactory.
 
The .38 S&W is a nice gun to shoot, loaded as per the normal factory specifications. As mentioned, if you want a more powerful round, get a gun with a more powerful cartridge.
I generally use the swaged 158 grain bullets from Hornady over a modest load of Bullseye or 231. Great for beginners as well.
 
Don't forget, if you try reloading those S&W cases with .357 bullets using S&W cases your bullets, being undersized, will just fall into the cases. Then you have the problem of those .357 bullets in a .361 bore, not good for accuracy. I can see it if you just want to try it to see what the results are, but curiosity aside, why bother?
 
Britain’s biggest revolver choice mistake was also made commercially here in the colonies by Colt & S&W. Of course adopting a serious proven cartridge by your former outposts & enemies would not be considered. But that’s another story.

38S&W gets its best performance with .361 diameter bullets. If you cannot find them or cast them, the easiest fall back position is to use swaged 148 grain hollow base .38special wad cutters. Which are available. Light charges of fast burning powder work best.
 
Thanks for the info guys!

I want to be clear I am new to reloading and don’t want to be doing anything dangerous. I am also not looking for .38 SPC performance but merely trying to get the most out of my revolver. If all I can shoot is .361 LRN rhats fine by me. I was mostly curious if there is modern .361 jacketed bullets such as the British switched too in the early stages of WW2
 
Ashcroft said:
Don't forget, if you try reloading those S&W cases with .357 bullets using S&W cases your bullets, being undersized, will just fall into the cases. Then you have the problem of those .357 bullets in a .361 bore, not good for accuracy. I can see it if you just want to try it to see what the results are, but curiosity aside, why bother?
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I will agree to disagree with you on this.

I know what you are saying should be the case but it's a toss up whether those barrels will actually be as large as many assume.

I recently purchased several surplus 38/200 S&W barrels, still new in the wrap from Tradex. Most of the bores measure out at .358. Two of them measure out at .356. After installation on S&W M10 M&P pistols to bring them into the restricted category, they shoot regular 358 diameter bullets very well.

That being said, they don't shoot cast lead bullets of that diameter well. Like you state, cast lead needs to be .360+ diameter to shoot well.
 
No doubt the Victory model S&W revolvers would handle more pressure than the earlier break top actions. But some caution needed regardless because the 200gr bullet and that small 38S&W case leave a narrow window between not enough pressure, and way too much pressure. Small increases in powder charge will at some point make for a rapid increase in pressure levels. At 38S&W performance levels cast will perform as well as jacketed bullets, or better, and maybe give some degree of safety margin in the older break top actions. Generally, pressures don't get as high with cast as compared to an equal load with a jacketed bullet. I make and sell a 150gr and 200gr bullets for 38S&W.

Wartime produced military break top revolvers have bore sizes all over the place, from .356" to .362" that I've seen but the chambers were all generously sized to accept .362" or larger bullets. Even if the bore is smaller, a bullet that fits the chamber has better accuracy potential because the larger bullet will be better centred and will enter the bore straighter than an undersized bullet. Squeezing a jacketed .361" or larger bullet into .356" bore might make some of us cringe but didn't seem to be an issue at the time.
 
BearHunter: how can you explain those radical sized barrels? Do the barrels actually say 38-200 or 38S&W?

Do you think those barrels are "rejects" that the maker sold just because he could? Lots of interesting questions right?
So, in order for .361 bullets to work in a .360 barrel the barrel mandrel had to be .360 & tool hard steel. Repeated use will wear the mandrel but using it all the way down to .358 is .......WTF?
 
hatman1793 said:
BearHunter: how can you explain those radical sized barrels? Do the barrels actually say 38-200 or 38S&W?

Do you think those barrels are "rejects" that the maker sold just because he could? Lots of interesting questions right?
So, in order for .361 bullets to work in a .360 barrel the barrel mandrel had to be .360 & tool hard steel. Repeated use will wear the mandrel but using it all the way down to .358 is .......WTF?
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I expect the decline in bore size was due to tool wear, or availability. The Brits were looking across the channel and facing an aggressive, well armed invader, and expediency was needed.

Boring tools start at the right size and wear with use. As they wear, the bores they cut get smaller. And maybe in some cases they started with .357" boring tools because that's what was readily available.
 
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I used to load with 148 hollow base wad cutters. The hollow base would expand on firing and results were good.

Then I bought some 160 gr SWC in .361 from the Bullet Barn. Better results. I used the max book load for 38S&W and it was mild and accurate.

My revolver is the same as yours. But I also use this same load in the old top break guns, too.

For a solid from gun, I would not mind using the Start loads for a 38 SPl.
 
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jethunter said:
I expect the decline in bore size was due to tool wear, or availability. The Brits were looking across the channel and facing an aggressive and much better armed invader, making rapid production was needed.

Boring tools start out at the right size and wear with use. As they wear, the bores they cut get smaller. And maybe in some cases they started with .357" boring tools because that's what was readily available.
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From what I read years ago on the S&W forum, they threw together what ever they had and sent it over...some with new barrels some with the old .38 barrels
 
I do want to reiterate I never wanted to make an unsafe load. However these pre victory models were made by a major gun maker, not yet at war and therefore have much better tolerances and are much more robust than British war time production. I really wanted a load close to WW2 spec.

I have found 200 gr casts online, however the brits switched to a jacketed (I want to say 174 gr) jacketed bullet over Hague convention concerns. I was just curious if there was some jacketed offering out there to produce WW2 era jacketed ammo in small batches. My main load will be factory ammo or 200 gr reloads
 
MattE93 said:
I do want to reiterate I never wanted to make an unsafe load. However these pre victory models were made by a major gun maker, not yet at war and therefore have much better tolerances and are much more robust than British war time production. I really wanted a load close to WW2 spec.

I have found 200 gr casts online, however the brits switched to a jacketed (I want to say 174 gr) jacketed bullet over Hague convention concerns. I was just curious if there was some jacketed offering out there to produce WW2 era jacketed ammo in small batches. My main load will be factory ammo or 200 gr reloads
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Son...if you have a .38/200 you have a gun made for British military...most like for .360
 
Yes..: but not as sloppy as British production. I know it is .361.... my .303 Brit can shoot .308 flawlessly, some bores are tight. Does anyone make .361 jacketed bullets similar to British loads?

yomomma said:
Son...if you have a .38/200 you have a gun made for British military...most like for .360
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I think there has been some confusion in this thread around how I framed my question. My standard load will be a 200 gr LRN standard pre war loading. I am not trying to shoot the wings off the fly at 50 yards with .357 jacketed bullet but wanted a jacketed bullet that would shoot decently well out of a .361 bore so I could make some small batches of ammo that would replicate WW2 issue mostly for collection
 
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