40 S&W OAL and stated Manual limits

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barnacle

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I've got some general questions to ask about reloading for IPSC Production for my .40S&W. I'm in the process of setting up my press and have yet to load my very first round. I'm have some nagging questions. I'm sure in 6 months, I'll reread this post and chuckle.:redface: Be kind.
I've got some Titegroup powder, Federal Small Pistol Primers, 180 gr Montana Gold CMJ bullets, and a sparkling new Dillon 550B.:dancingbanana:

1. How much will substituting a Federal primer rather than a Winchester primer affect the safety of my loads?

2. Can I use a load where the bullet weights are the same but the brand or nose/kind are different? For example on page 342 of my Lyman 48th Ed. Reloading Handbook they list a recipe for 180 gr. Jacketed HP. Is it correct to assume you could substitute non HP bullets?

3. I was disappointed to see that my Titegroup wasn't listed there so I checked the Hodgdon site and found 180 gr. Hornady XTP listed for Titegroup. They list 1.125" for the OAL. How close can I approach this? If I can adjust my seating die to 1.120" is that ok? I plan to experiment a bit to see how accurate varying lengths are and how consistently they load.

Thanks for your help.
 
Been there. Done that. Your questions are good.

Although safety and triple checking every operation is paramount, reloading really isn't brain surgery or rocket science.

If you choose to take my advice, it is completely at your own risk; let's be clear. That having been said, you can guestimate without being unsafe.

Let me suggest this: make up dummy rounds to play around with the OAL--without loading primer or powder. Make up a bunch. See how they feed from the mag--but be absolutely sure that the cartridges have no powder or primer. They should be empty casings with bullets. Mark them with indelible Sharpie to be sure.

Make up a bunch.

If they feed, they're good to go. I've been off that much and the finished product was fine. When you finish experimenting, break them up, throw them away, or something, to make sure that they don't get mixed up where you don't want them to be.

You'll find that factory stuff can be off a bit, too.

The major danger is accidentally loading a cartridge a double load of powder. This can happen and it practically guarantees a bloody hand. This is why I visually inspect every powder load in my Lee before it seats the bullet. And I keep a scale ready.
 
I'm a novice reloader, so take these ideas with that in mind.

1.)I think when switching primers, you might want to back off the charge slightly, and work up again. I haven't switched primers, I just use the same kind to keep it simple. I've also heard if you switch to magnum primers, you should back off the powder charge, then go up.

2.)I've only loaded by weight, not the bullet profile. Then again, I don't shoot max loads. I treat plated bullets as jacketed, but I think you have to reduce powder charges for cast.

3.)The .40 S & W is a high pressure round, so going too short in c.o.l. might increase pressure when you don't want it. I notice reloading data bounces between 1.15-1.135, depending on the bullet/load. Myself, I stick to 1.125-1.132 c.o.l.. Never any feed problems. This is for the m & p 40.
 
barnacle said:
1. How much will substituting a Federal primer rather than a Winchester primer affect the safety of my loads?
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If you're not on the raggety assed edge of the load data, probably won't. If you want to load right up to the maximum published loads, I wouldn't do it in my 40 S&W reloading.

The .40 S&W is not in the tops where auto pistol loads are concerned regarding pressures, but it is up there. With regard to that and a few other firearm related issues, the .40 S&W is one round where it is my personal opinion that swapping around components and load data when loading max loads is a very poor idea. Mind you, I am probably more prudent than many reloaders. I haven't had any bad experiences in reloading handgun for just under 40 years, most of that on progressive presses, so I'm pretty comfortable with this approach.

I'm not big on loading anything to the thin edge of maximum published data anyways. My personal opinion is there is probably minimum benefit for the degree of reduction in the fudge safety factor and the extra stress on the firearm. But, if and when people decide to go there, I think the closer you religiously adhere to the published load specifications as you approach maximum loads, the better off you are.

2. Can I use a load where the bullet weights are the same but the brand or nose/kind are different? For example on page 342 of my Lyman 48th Ed. Reloading Handbook they list a recipe for 180 gr. Jacketed HP. Is it correct to assume you could substitute non HP bullets?
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The answer is "it depends". If you seat a longer bullet of the same weight to the same depth as specified for a shorter bullet of the same weight, you have just reduced the internal capacity of the case - and in the stubby little .40 S&W, that reduction can be significant. Then there's all the little details of whether you're comparing lead bullets to jacketed, etc.

For middle of the road loads and small differences between bullets, I would be prudent but wouldn't be too concerned about differences.

I don't intend to make it sound like you're playing with dynamite. Perhaps a better way is to suggest the .40 S%W deserves a little extra respect when deviating from published data, and the hotter you intend to load then the more respect you need to show.

3. I was disappointed to see that my Titegroup wasn't listed there so I checked the Hodgdon site and found 180 gr. Hornady XTP listed for Titegroup. They list 1.125" for the OAL. How close can I approach this? If I can adjust my seating die to 1.120" is that ok? I plan to experiment a bit to see how accurate varying lengths are and how consistently they load.
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The load they list is just 1700 psi below the SAAMI maximum. Going over the maximum won't initiate instant Armaggedon, but I think most would agree that staying below the SAAMI max - especially if you're going to go through the number of rounds a competitor does - is a good idea.

Both are jacketed bullets. I would calculate the difference between the length of the HP given in the load data and the bullet you intend to use. I would not seat the substitute bullet any further into the case than the base of the bullet in the load data would go. By doing this, you are ensuring that the internal case capacity that published load is operating at is not reduced and, if anything, increased.

On a general note, if you cannot find a published load that matches the components you have on mind, I would consider using the Titegroup and primers as "shooters" in slightly detuned loads for practice. I don't think Titegroup is optimal in the .40 S&W anyways, particularly in a reloading setup that does not have a powder checker die in it. I suspect you could get a double charge with some of those Titegroup loads, whereas you can't double charge with Longshot or Blue Dot for example. And with those loads, you can get the velocities with your bullet that Titegroup will produce, with significantly lower pressures.

The good news about the .40 S&W is that there is LOTS of published and tested load data out there to choose from that uses commonly available components.

I guess my final point is I do a lot of loading for .40 S&W and have loaded everything from the 135 gr. HP's to the 200 gr. heavy hitters. The .40 is actually relatively easy to load for, but thoughtful selection of loads and powder choices can really improve the results.
 
There are too issues with OAL. Deeper increases pressure. Longer will not feed well. make some long dummies (say 5) and then start seating them deeper and deeper in 12 thou increments (a quarter turn of the seater stem) unitl they feed weel, and then go a quarter turn more, so you are not near the dge of not feeding. You will need to repeat this process with each new bullet nose shape.

Changing bullets, but using similar weights makes little difference in a long case like a 45 Colt. In a 40 Short & Weak is does make a difference, so don't start off with the same hot load. Change bullets and work up, looking for the accuracy load before you get to pressure.

Changing to Federal is fine. It is a milder primer with a softer cup. It is a bit riskier in the Autoprime though. I had one go off. If they all fire in your Dillon tube, it is exciting. That said, I prefer feds for better ignition in revlovers.
 
Thank you all for your input and suggestions. I feel a load (pardon the pun) lifting from my shoulders. I've got two young kids, and a mortgage. I certainly don't intend to stretch any limits and just want to make power factor for production.
I'd be grateful for any further advice you feel like sharing. Guess I'll find search out Winchester primers next time I'm in town.
 
If you are loading for IPSC production then you don't need anywhere near maximum loads. If you are not using max loads, then swapping components will not (likely) push your pressures anywhere near max.

Some guns won't accept ammo loaded much longer than factory specs, it depends on the particular design. You will find that most double stack 1911's will feed well (or better) with an OAL longer than spec, but those rounds won't even fit into a Glock mag.

As a suggestion, load some rounds using the suggested starting amount of powder and work down from there to get a load that meets minor power factor yet still reliably cycles your gun. With 40 S&W you will generally loose reliable functioning before you go below minor power factor.
 
If you want to determine the maximum length of bullet your guns chamber will take, do the following:

1. Remove your barrel from the gun.

2. Measure the length of the bulet you are going to use and write it down.

3. Drop a bullet into the chamber and measure from the base of the bullet to the end of the chamber where the base of the cartridge case would be flush with the barrel with a set of calipers..

4. Add the measurement in 3 to that of the length of the bullet.

Back off a few thousandths and you will have the maxmum OAL of your cartridge for that gun. Often with bullets we don't know what the recomended OAL of the cartridge is for the bullets you have. The above is an easy way to determine maximum OAL.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
If you want to determine the maximum length of bullet your guns chamber will take, do the following:

1. Remove your barrel from the gun.

2. Measure the length of the bulet you are going to use and write it down.

3. Drop a bullet into the chamber and measure from the base of the bullet to the end of the chamber where the base of the cartridge case would be flush with the barrel with a set of calipers..

4. Add the measurement in 3 to that of the length of the bullet.

Back off a few thousandths and you will have the maxmum OAL of your cartridge for that gun. Often with bullets we don't know what the recomended OAL of the cartridge is for the bullets you have. The above is an easy way to determine maximum OAL.

Take Care

Bob
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Nicely put, Bob! I'm gonna save that...
 
GANDERITE said:
There are too issues with OAL. Deeper increases pressure. Longer will not feed well.
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I would disagree.. it all depends on the pistol you are firing it from.. mine likes the longer OAL (1.19 to 1.20) where as the 1.125 have problems all the time.

you need to think of it like a large formula where each component can effect the pressure. once you understand what each one does, then you can "back each one off", make a change to one element at a time and then adjust them as you need. (Using a chrony, signs of pressure etc..)

Eg. if you want to make a shorter OAL (not changing anything else) then back off the powder, adjust the OAL, then increase it ever so slightly until you get the same FPS as before.. then do the same for the primer change..

the goal is to control each change as you go, and not do a bunch together.

I use 5.2 of titegroup, BUT I use an longer OAL (1.2), a poly barrel, and a lighter crimp.. all of these require more power to get the same FPS as a shorter, button rifling, and tihter crimp. and I NEVER let anyone use my reloads in a gun that is not my own (and I don't use others for just that reason).
 
Canuck44 said:
If you want to determine the maximum length of bullet your guns chamber will take, do the following:

1. Remove your barrel from the gun.

2. Measure the length of the bulet you are going to use and write it down.

3. Drop a bullet into the chamber and measure from the base of the bullet to the end of the chamber where the base of the cartridge case would be flush with the barrel with a set of calipers..
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Easier yet:

With the slide closed, measure from the muzzle to the face of the slide. Record this measurement

Lock the slide back and drop a bullet in the barrel. Drop the slide. With the bullet sitting on the lands - not driven into the lands, measure from the muzzle to the nose of the bullet.

Subtract the second measurement from the first, and you have the maximum overall cartridge length WITH THAT PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL BULLET (i.e. hollowpoints in particular can vary a fair amount in overall length from bullet to bullet, less significant changes with truncated cones and whatnot). Using that test bullet, adjust your seating die a bit at a time until you are a couple of thou's below the overall length you calculated.

The maximum overall length that will chamber in your pistol without seating the bullet into the lands is not necessarily a length that will feed flawlessly from your magazines. I'll let you guess at how I learned that little bit of information about 35 years ago - at a time when I was still reloading all my handgun ammunition on a single stage press.
 
Just when you think you got it right somebody comes along with a beter mouse trap. Good post Rick. The only thing you have to be careful with doing it your way is to make sure you are measuring from the tip of the bullet. Pointy, round nose and hollow points could give you a false reading if your measuring stick slides by the tip of the bullet.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
Just when you think you got it right somebody comes along with a beter mouse trap. Good post Rick. The only thing you have to be careful with doing it your way is to make sure you are measuring from the tip of the bullet. Pointy, round nose and hollow points could give you a false reading if your measuring stick slides by the tip of the bullet.
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Oh yeah... forgot about that part of this. I don't do depth measurement directly using verniers except for truncated cone bullets - and don't have a set long enough to work on a rifle barrel for one thing.

I have a collection of brass rod that I use for the measuring that are of various diameters - you can always use your cleaning rod and a jag filed nice and flat at the end. A little black marker on the rod where it will line up with the muzzle. When the rod is resting against the slide/bolt, you lay a box cutter or razor blade across the muzzle, roll the rod between your fingers, and you have a nice bright line in the black on your rod. Drop your bullet in there and then repeat the process to get your second line. After that you have two razor lines scribed on your rod - align your verniers with those lines and that's your cartridge maximum OAL.
 
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