.408 CheyTac
- Thread starter Rohann
- Start date
- Location
- calgary alberta
Having built and shot the 408, I fail to see how the fellow in the video is able to keep a straight face with his pitch.
The 408 is much like the hype that Remington passed on about the 300RUM when it was first offered. Unfortunately what they claim and reality are totally different.
The cost of shooting 408 is as high if not more so than 50, due to the fact that only 1 company makes brass and only 1 company makes 408 bullets, so the costs are artificially high. True it uses less powder and standard primers, but this is more than offset by the major components higher cost.
The 750gr Amax bullets have a posted ( by Sierra) B.C. of 1.05, which greatly eclipses the .96 of the 408.
For the most part physics says that heavier bullets retain veloicty and retained energy longer than lighter 1s do. I believe with high BC bullets of similar design but different weights this holds true.
My own personal 50 shoots 750 gr Amaxs out of the 35.5" barrel at 3015 fps at the muzzle, according to Sierras Infinity 5.1 program the bullet is still traveling at 1171 fps at 3000 yards, which last I saw was still supersonic.
The 408 is a nice little ,in between cartridge, but for anyone to state it is superior ballistically to the 50, I think is sadly mistaken.
I see some promise in the 416 Barrett, but again it suffers from the same basic problems of proprietary components, at least at this time. I plan to build 1 as soon as a barrel arrives, to see if we are again being exagerated to.
The 408 is much like the hype that Remington passed on about the 300RUM when it was first offered. Unfortunately what they claim and reality are totally different.
The cost of shooting 408 is as high if not more so than 50, due to the fact that only 1 company makes brass and only 1 company makes 408 bullets, so the costs are artificially high. True it uses less powder and standard primers, but this is more than offset by the major components higher cost.
The 750gr Amax bullets have a posted ( by Sierra) B.C. of 1.05, which greatly eclipses the .96 of the 408.
For the most part physics says that heavier bullets retain veloicty and retained energy longer than lighter 1s do. I believe with high BC bullets of similar design but different weights this holds true.
My own personal 50 shoots 750 gr Amaxs out of the 35.5" barrel at 3015 fps at the muzzle, according to Sierras Infinity 5.1 program the bullet is still traveling at 1171 fps at 3000 yards, which last I saw was still supersonic.
The 408 is a nice little ,in between cartridge, but for anyone to state it is superior ballistically to the 50, I think is sadly mistaken.
I see some promise in the 416 Barrett, but again it suffers from the same basic problems of proprietary components, at least at this time. I plan to build 1 as soon as a barrel arrives, to see if we are again being exagerated to.
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Long Range Canuck
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Athabasca Alberta aka God's Country
Great post Rick answers alot of my questions.
- Location
- calgary alberta
The 408 bullet has a higher BC than every 416 commercial bullet to date, except for the new Barnes bullet developed for the 416 Barrett. I am trying to talk Woodleigh into making a long ogive high BC bullet, they are all tooled for 416 anyway, an being down under there are no stupid export regulations.tootall said:
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
When the 408CT first came out, the interest in the LR hunting community was huge. After the first rifles and ammo finally got produced, results were far from the marketing hype. Certainly nothing that a quality 338 couldn't duplicate for far less hassle and cost.
One area for the use of the 0.408 bullet was that it still would fall in the smallbore limits (max 40cal) of many 1000yd BR sanctioning bodies. The 416 is too big.
Barrett of course wouldn't care as they are into the 50BMG market. Their 416Barrett would be a nice 'small' toy for Calf. and the kinder, gentler needs of the US forces. Think retrofit contracts....
Unfortunately, poor QC, delays, results and extreme costs have really set back the CheyTac program. Apparently, it is being resurrected in Montana again with some favorable press. Still only two small manf of components and no real commercial support nor US contracts (at least none I have read about). Costs are still high. Hope it gets somewhere as it is nice to see a small guy succeed (Barrett is not what I would call a small guy).
ATR, I believe that Wildcat bullets in Sask is planning some 408/416 high BC bullets. Not sure how far along the development curve they are. give Bulletsmith a shout...
Jerry
One area for the use of the 0.408 bullet was that it still would fall in the smallbore limits (max 40cal) of many 1000yd BR sanctioning bodies. The 416 is too big.
Barrett of course wouldn't care as they are into the 50BMG market. Their 416Barrett would be a nice 'small' toy for Calf. and the kinder, gentler needs of the US forces. Think retrofit contracts....
Unfortunately, poor QC, delays, results and extreme costs have really set back the CheyTac program. Apparently, it is being resurrected in Montana again with some favorable press. Still only two small manf of components and no real commercial support nor US contracts (at least none I have read about). Costs are still high. Hope it gets somewhere as it is nice to see a small guy succeed (Barrett is not what I would call a small guy).
ATR, I believe that Wildcat bullets in Sask is planning some 408/416 high BC bullets. Not sure how far along the development curve they are. give Bulletsmith a shout...
Jerry
Long Range Canuck
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Athabasca Alberta aka God's Country
Mystic, Wildcat bullets is in Wetaskwin Alberta, last time I chatted with him he was experimenting with the .408 bullet, not sure if it has gone any further. The .408 had caught my attention earlier as the .416 has now. All the checking on the .408 I have done has shown it to be more show than go. I'm waiting for more proven results from the .416 to see what it will do, It show's much more promise than the .408 and with a major manufacturer behind it should make availability of components much easier, If the State dept lifts the bans, it can still be interpreted as a .50 Chances are I will end up going .50 if the .416 doesnt pan.
- Location
- calgary alberta
The advantage I see with Barretts 416 is that it is a retofit for anything chambered currently in 50bmg, and from talking to Ronnie, California folks are buying it, so it may well take off. Whether it is as advertised, time and experience will tell, hence my wanting to build 1 to see.
The State dept has already told me they will NOT approve exportation of the Barrett rifles due to the fact that they can be converted to 50 easily.
As long as they will allow for the export of the bullets we should be ok, brass is easy to make, it is 50 shortened and necked down, something wildcatters have been doing for years.
The State dept has already told me they will NOT approve exportation of the Barrett rifles due to the fact that they can be converted to 50 easily.
As long as they will allow for the export of the bullets we should be ok, brass is easy to make, it is 50 shortened and necked down, something wildcatters have been doing for years.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Oops, missed by one province.
I doubt either country is in a hurry to increase access to mean and nasty toys. If the US is restricting screws for mounting scopes, I sincerely doubt BMG components will be available ever again.
The weakest and most expensive link is access to primers. Without these, all the go fast parts in the world will not help. Right now there is little interest in finding an overseas product due to a market way too small. Getting primers from the US becomes a daunting task.
If there is a dealer with affordable primers, let us all know.
For me, the biggest cannon I am likely to own will be based on a LR primered case. That leaves the biggest case as the 338/416 Rigby improved monster. Pretty sure it is a bit larger then the 378 Wby case. I figure burning 120 to 130gr of powder per bang should be enough testosterone.
The Lazz family is also limited by access but would work. Don't think it is that much bigger though????? 505 Gibbs case bigger????
Right now, the 300 RUM and my 338 Mystic is big enough.
Jerry
I doubt either country is in a hurry to increase access to mean and nasty toys. If the US is restricting screws for mounting scopes, I sincerely doubt BMG components will be available ever again.
The weakest and most expensive link is access to primers. Without these, all the go fast parts in the world will not help. Right now there is little interest in finding an overseas product due to a market way too small. Getting primers from the US becomes a daunting task.
If there is a dealer with affordable primers, let us all know.
For me, the biggest cannon I am likely to own will be based on a LR primered case. That leaves the biggest case as the 338/416 Rigby improved monster. Pretty sure it is a bit larger then the 378 Wby case. I figure burning 120 to 130gr of powder per bang should be enough testosterone.
The Lazz family is also limited by access but would work. Don't think it is that much bigger though????? 505 Gibbs case bigger????
Right now, the 300 RUM and my 338 Mystic is big enough.
Jerry
Long Range Canuck
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Athabasca Alberta aka God's Country
Just wondering on a whim here, if the U.S. market is so strict on .50 components has anyone tried the Czech. or Bosnian sources for Components or component manufacturers. If its available that route why not just say screw you and your primers to, to the U.S.
I don't know the politics of it but if we can import CZ firearms and other parts why not .50 ammo and components?
There is an article in this months Combat Arms magazine about Wolf brand Ammunition and the strides they are taking in the production and quality of ammo....havent finished it yet, but that could be a good option also?
I don't know the politics of it but if we can import CZ firearms and other parts why not .50 ammo and components?
There is an article in this months Combat Arms magazine about Wolf brand Ammunition and the strides they are taking in the production and quality of ammo....havent finished it yet, but that could be a good option also?
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Problem isn't possible suppliers (RWS makes primers I believe), its a Cdn import company with enough money to go buy a bunch for the few guys shooting BMG's.
At roughly 25cents per primer (probably 15cents wholesale), you are going to tie up a lot of cash in a big hurry for an extremely small market. Odds are good 50,000 to 100,000 primers would be the opening bet. How many lifetimes to sell that many primers in Canada?
I know you are going to say "the market will grow IF components are available". Maybe, but there is little interest in the reg. stuff (try finding stock on reg. match bullets and match primers) let alone something that will cost upwards of $5 per bang.
Then the problem becomes WHERE CAN YOU SHOOT A BMG??? I don't think there are many ranges certified for this boomer.
Sort of like Ferraris. Many dream of owning/racing one, precious few get sold, even fewer ever get used. Difference is that you don't need to sell too many Ferraris to pay the bills.
Big cased 338's are a no brainer with readily available components, almost affordable shooting costs, no issue with parts/actions/barrels, outstanding LR ballistics. How many 338 Lapuas are out there? How many 338 Wildcats?
Wish things were different....
Jerry
At roughly 25cents per primer (probably 15cents wholesale), you are going to tie up a lot of cash in a big hurry for an extremely small market. Odds are good 50,000 to 100,000 primers would be the opening bet. How many lifetimes to sell that many primers in Canada?
I know you are going to say "the market will grow IF components are available". Maybe, but there is little interest in the reg. stuff (try finding stock on reg. match bullets and match primers) let alone something that will cost upwards of $5 per bang.
Then the problem becomes WHERE CAN YOU SHOOT A BMG??? I don't think there are many ranges certified for this boomer.
Sort of like Ferraris. Many dream of owning/racing one, precious few get sold, even fewer ever get used. Difference is that you don't need to sell too many Ferraris to pay the bills.
Big cased 338's are a no brainer with readily available components, almost affordable shooting costs, no issue with parts/actions/barrels, outstanding LR ballistics. How many 338 Lapuas are out there? How many 338 Wildcats?
Wish things were different....
Jerry
Thanks for the replies all.
ATR: Thanks for the info, it balances the biased marketing ploy of Cheyene. I didn't know the .50 had such a high BC!
If I could then I'd buy a .50 BMG or a .338 Lapua, but the problem is (as mysticplayer said): where do you shoot a .50, or even a .338? Here on Vancouver Island, I am not aware of any range that is certified for either cartridge.
-Rohann
ATR: Thanks for the info, it balances the biased marketing ploy of Cheyene. I didn't know the .50 had such a high BC!
If I could then I'd buy a .50 BMG or a .338 Lapua, but the problem is (as mysticplayer said): where do you shoot a .50, or even a .338? Here on Vancouver Island, I am not aware of any range that is certified for either cartridge.
-Rohann
- Location
- calgary alberta
Rohann said:
Just passing on info from the various bullet makers and my experiences.
As Jerry posts, the 50s have got some sigificant issues, both to do with cost of shooting and places to shoot them.
Out here there are a few more places that are templated for the 50s, I am fortunate having my own property to shoot on, out to 2 miles, hence my passion for them.
Components are available to be sure, I have close to 50000 primers on hand at this moment, along with brass and ammo, but as Jerry states , it ain't cheap due to the sheer cost of importation.
Realistically a heavy 338 would be far more practical for 99.9 % of the time, but the 50s are much like drugs, addictive as hell and just as costly, maybe more so.
- Location
- calgary alberta
Was taliking to a US based buddy who is playing with 20mm and 30mm. He has been experimenting with frontal ignition, as fuzze's are hard come by for both. He has been making thread in, inserts which consist of a tube that is crossdrilled inside a larger diameter tube, both being smaller diameter than the thread in base, which is plugged with a LR mag primer.
The outer tube has to be filled with (in his case 4064) powder. The theory is that the LR primer will ignite the finer powder in the outer tube creating enough ingition to ignite the main charge of 400 Gr of H50BMG.
Yup its a pain in the ass to make up, but apparently his tubes,and plugs are made of stainless and last up well. This may be an answer to the primer problem for big case rifles. I see no reason , other than time and money, not to rework some 50 cases for this method of ingition. I believe Gibbs worked on this years back, in some form.
For now I still plan to run good old #35s, they still have enough fire to light up my 20mm, the 30mm I am trying to build may be a different story.
The outer tube has to be filled with (in his case 4064) powder. The theory is that the LR primer will ignite the finer powder in the outer tube creating enough ingition to ignite the main charge of 400 Gr of H50BMG.
Yup its a pain in the ass to make up, but apparently his tubes,and plugs are made of stainless and last up well. This may be an answer to the primer problem for big case rifles. I see no reason , other than time and money, not to rework some 50 cases for this method of ingition. I believe Gibbs worked on this years back, in some form.
For now I still plan to run good old #35s, they still have enough fire to light up my 20mm, the 30mm I am trying to build may be a different story.
Long Range Canuck
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Athabasca Alberta aka God's Country
Rohann said:
Rohann Im origninaly from the Cowichan and Comox Valley, There are ton's of places on the island to use these calibers, mountain ridges overlooking cutblocks, Logging roads all over with excellent places to shoot and do so with good backdrops. Shooting goes beyond a range.
just an opinion
