41 Colt blackpowder loads

sask3500

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Just getting started with this caliber. I'm thinking the safe bet is fffg blackpowder but I don't have any experience handloading with blackpowder. Any tips?
Are the equivalents like pyrodex a whole other can of worms to stay away from?

Lots of the smokeless powder options you run across are not available.
 
FFFG real black powder would be an ideal place to start if it's available. It was what was in the original ammunition.

It's commonly accepted wisdom that there should be no empty space in the cartridge and a bit of compression is usually best.
Use a bullet lube that's compatible with black powder as Alox or other smokeless lube can lead to hard fouling that's no good for accuracy and difficult to clean out.

The black powder substitutes can be used but each has it's own instructions. Some are not recommended to be compressed or the conversion from real black powder is done by equal volumes rather than equal weights.
 
sask3500: Cartridge reloading with bp or Pyrodex is pretty straight forward. Powder charge is always calculated by volume. But, may be adjusted by weight. Here's how:

Measure from the bullet's crimp groove to its base. If loading a heel-based bullet...which I suspect may be the case with your .41 Colt, if an antique revolver... measure depth of heel. Take that measurement and transfer it to a small piece of tape wrapped around the end of a pencil(Pencil should be flat on end), or small dowel. Pour black powder into the case, until it reaches to about the depth of the mark on the tape. Then, trickle a bit more in, to bring the powder volume inside the case up about another 1 /16 " . Doesn't have to be exact. This will add a bit of compression to the powder charge, when the bullet is seated. Black powder and Pyrodex deliver best performance when compressed.

That will be your basic charge.

For a more accurate measurement and consistency in loading, weigh that same volume of powder on a scale. Then, using that weight as a reference, adjust the powder charge as needed, so that following charges are consistent. If no scale available and Lee powder dippers available, start at 1cc, and work your way up or down, until you arrive at about the same amount of powder in the .41's case. You don't need to be exact with each charge. BP and Pyrodex are pretty forgiving. So, a few granules either way, won't hurt. It's the overall volume of the charge that should be reasonably consistent.

You can even make a reasonably accurate measure, using a pistol case, ie: .38 Special, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, etc. Mark how far up the case the 41's bp powder charge fills it, then trim the case to hold about the same volume of bp**. Solder or twist a wire handle onto the base of the case and use it to scoop out the powder charge.

As vagrantviking recommends, use a lube that is compatible with bp. Avoid using petroleum-based lube. Or too-hard lube intended for smokeless powder. Though there are any number of bp compatible lubes commercially available, you can easily make your own. A good, basic bp lube: 50/50 mix of beeswax(not paraffin) and tallow. The type of tallow makes no difference. I regularly use tallow sourced from white-tailed deer. Works just fine. If tallow not available, salt-free lard works equally well.

BP substitutes like Triple 7 or APP are also loaded by volume. But...will take a slightly different loading approach. 777 does not like being compressed. So in this case.... simply measure the powder charge up to the base of the seated bullet. This will be the charge by volume. Do not add any more powder. Likewise, with APP. Compressing these powders can result in erratic pressure spikes.

Remember: "Equal volumes". Thanks, vagrantviking. That's it, in a nut shell.


Hope this helps

Al

**
Though still occupying the same volume as an equivalent charge of bp.... Pyrodex is not as dense. Thus, weighs less than black powder. By about 15%. So, always base your volumetric measurements on black powder.

This weight difference will show up on the scale. Do not add more Pyrodex to bring it up to the same weight as the bp charge. That will result in an over charge.
For example: A 20-grain charge of bp by volume...might weigh only 17-18 grains, of Pyrodex. Use that weight, as the new reference when fine-tuning powder charges. Likewise, with 777 or APP.
 
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Thanks Alex, that was spot on info. Do you know if the blackpowder substitutes generate similar pressure and velocity as the powder they emulate?

I originally looked at smokeless loads but there is lots of contradictory information out there and alot of the widely accepted smokeless for 41 colt is really hard to find in stock.
 
sask3500: Pressure profiles and velocities for black powder ie: Goex, Swiss and subs: Pyrodex are similar. Likewise: APP.(American Pioneer Powder). Triple 7 on the other hand, operates at higher pressures. But, also delivers higher velocity per charge, compared to its black powder counterparts. To duplicate bp performance, Hodgdon recommends reducing 777 loads by 15% .

Still, when manufacturer's load instructions are followed, 777 is perfectly safe to use in either muzzle loaders or cartridge-firing guns. Though I tend to prefer using real bp in most scenarios...especially in cartridge-firing guns, I have used a fair amount of 777 over the years, without issue. It bears mentioning that lately, I've been having very good results with Swiss powder. Generally a bit better velocity than Goex. Seems to be more readily available, too.

As you likely already know, Starline manufactures 41 Long Colt brass. Did a quick check on the Rusty Wood site. The brass is listed, though currently on order. But at least available for reloaders.

It's always good to see these classic guns and chamberings brought back to life. I expect you'll have a lot of fun shooting your Colt. Is it an early model, like the Thunderer, or later...New Army, New Service etc.?

Al
 
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sask3500: I've known some bp revolver shooters to completely fill the all the interior space of the action, with synthetic grease. To eliminate bp residue from entering the action and possibly causing corrosion of interior parts. I haven't done that....though it seems logical, as the gun doesn't need to be stripped very often, but... I am not sold on the idea. The hard truth with bp guns is that, in my experience, stripping them is the only really reliable way of getting them clean and keeping them corrosion free.

The problem with the 1889 is its fairly complex lock work. Which could make a full disassemble risky, unless thoroughly familiar with how these guns work.

If okay with stripping your 1889 down completely: As far as simple but good, basic bp cleaners goes....ordinary hot, soapy water is hard to beat. Works exceptionally well, at the job. Followed by rinsing in very hot water(Metal should be almost too hot to handle). The heat speeds up the drying process...especially in those nooks and crannys that might be hard to thoroughly get to, with a q-tip, patch or paper towel, etc. The hand slot, being a regular culprit.

Also in line for bp revolver cleaning/lubrication, two alternate products come to mind: Ballistol. Non-petroleum based, so compatible with black powder. Works well full strength, as a lubricant and protectorant. When diluted, does double duty as a cleaner and lubricant. I like an 8:1 or even 9:1 mix ratio. The ratio of oil to water doesn't seem too critical. When the water evaporates, a thin film of oil is left behind on metal surfaces. Good stuff. Of course, there are many other equally good gun oils. This is a personal choice.

My all time favourite bp cleaner, is ordinary: isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol. Removes sooty residue in a jiffy, leaving metal parts squeaky clean. Have used it exclusively for cleaning up bp residue, for many years. Works well. I like to use alcohol to swab off the cylinder face after several rounds of shooting. Also the bore and chambers. Plus any other surfaces where residue may accumulate. Followed by light lubrication, where needed. A necessity with alcohol, as it cleans the surface very thoroughly. When/where it isn't possible to fully disassemble a gun...this is my go-to cleaner.

One caution with Pyrodex: This bp sub is highly corrosive and should be cleaned off metal surfaces as soon as possible after shooting....within reason....to prevent flash rusting. Rust can and will set up very quickly if left unattended for any length of time.

Ordinary bp is corrosive too, but not quite so bad. Though still needing attention. Another powder which is also highly corrosive....especially to brass cases, is APP. Cases should be dunked into a container filled with water(neutralizes the acid), as soon as possible after firing. 777 is not as bad as bp or Pyrodex. But ,I follow the same procedure with this powder, too.

Note: Many shooters dunk all their cases into water right after firing, regardless of powder type. But, I've found that with Goex or Swiss black powder....in some instances, this process can wait until a person gets home. A personal choice, only. If you wish to dunk 'em...by all means. Some shooters will have a container filled with soapy water with them at the range firing line, or close to their loading station. Plain water neutralizes the acids, just as well.

Cleaning bp guns seems like a lot of work. But really isn't. Once you get the process down.

Hope this answers some of your questions.

Al

ps: I will be away all next week. If a question comes up, will try to answer as soon as possible.
 
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Thanks. I'm working on a blackpowder order, no substitutes. I'll get back to you once I have some real questions.

Actually I just thought of one. I will be expanding and fireforming some 357 brass as I don't have much 41 Colt brass. Will it be a good idea to vary the load as the brass forms out? As in as the brass expands adjust the load up accordingly?
 
Finally got a chance to shoot my revolver. 15gr ffg was 530 fps and tumbled with a 195 gr hollow base bullet in Starline brass. 17.5 was 600fps and seemed to stabilize. Any thoughts on going higher?
 
sask3500: So long as your hollow-base bullets are expanding enough to engage the rifling and accuracy is acceptable, it may not be necessary to up the powder charge much beyond about 18-19 grains. Ffg usually does a nice job of filling a case. Expect it to be a bit sootier than Fffg, though. Which generally isn't much of a problem either....as the cleaning procedure for the gun will remain the same.
Under normal loading conditions, even heavily compressed black powder shouldn't produce enough outward pressure to cause case walls to swell or bulge, to any degree. More often the bullet will be pushed out of the case.
You can expect some bulging from your fire-formed .357 cases though, starting just past the case's solid base As the walls of the smaller diameter .357 case expand and fill the .41 Colt cylinder chambers.
Very often, I will fire form using a light to moderate load, first. While working toward an accurate load. I will also lightly anneal cases...especially if once fired
Al
 
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I mis-typed. I have fffg to load with. Is annealing the virgin 357 cases before expanding and loading a good or bad idea? I may get some time to experiment this weekend.
 
sask3500:: I generally don't anneal virgin cases*. Since they're not work-hardened to any degree (Fired or previously sized). Particularly when fireforming with bp(As it generates a lot of heat). But, nothing wrong with doing so.
I do anneal previously-fired cases prior to fire forming, though.

If not annealing : The only possible issue might be when flaring the .357 case mouths prior to bullet loading. In your case, I don't think that the expansion needed is dramatic enough to cause problems. Especially, if using a gently tapered expander. The first few flared cases should tell the tale. If splits appear, then I would anneal the rest...at least as far down as the depth of a seated bullet.

Fffg should work well for you. Generally preferred for many pistol-caliber cartridges. Though Ffg is also perfectly suitable for cartridges down to .38 Special. In fact, I use both powder granulations interchangeably, depending on supply.
Likewise: Pyrodex. With Pyrodex P about the equivalent to Fffg. While RS is closer to Ffg in performance.

The exception being either .38 Short, or Long Colt. In which case: Fffg or P, is preferred.



Looking forward to your results.

Al
* One exception being Starline 45-70 brass. Which the company recommends annealing when loading with black powder.
 
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I got a chance to make some 41 colt. Started with new Starline 357 brass. I have Redding dies, trimmed brass 5 thou long. They expanded easily and fairly concentric. They ended up 5 thou too short after expanding but no splitting.

I had been making up brass scoops for powder but then remembered I have a Lee autodisc with an adjustable charge bar so I used that.

18 grains by volume is perfect in Starline 41 Colt brass but a bit of a tight fit for the unformed 357 brass. The seater left a ring in the lead bullet. Hopefully second loadings have some more room.
 
For information for others the average I could find for goex fffg was 1cc equals 15 to 15.2 grains volume. My 18 grain load was 1.2cc according to the scale on my lee charge bar and weighed out at 18gr.
 
Latest issue of Handloader has a long Venturino article on loading for the 41 Colt. Might want to find a copy. - dan
I read through that, thanks Dan. While interesting it also reinforced why I decided to pursue blackpowder loads. Smokeless powder looks to be more of a challenge for this cartridge than its worth. A bit more cleaning than normal is an easy trade off for linear load development without the pressure risks of smokeless in a 131 year old gun.

Plus blackpowder clouds smell awesome....
 
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