44 F & W british Bulldog bore diameter

tokguy

tokguy

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Picked this one up off a fellow member. Got a fair deal too.

Poor thing needs some repairing but I like that.
But what on earth to make of the bullet / case diameters?
It chambers a 44 Russian (Star-line brass) perfectly. So the chambers are about .44 with a ID on the shell case of say .429.
But the bore...

Yes it's not round. About .410 wide X about .395 high.
People shot these? The forcing cone on the bbl is quite large but my basic (Peavy Mart) digital Micrometer won't fit in the frame to get a proper measurement, but it's a .420-.425 easily.
I could conceptualize running a pure lead HB of about 40 cal through it, but how to get a decent crimp from the 44 Russian case?
And how many drinks to feed the brother-in-law to get him to test fire it?
 
oldiron said:
A nice looking piece. Are there signs of rifling in the bore?
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It's in quite amazing shape actually. The hammer is broken, after which the trigger spring and mainspring were likely cannibalized. The bore is great and it locks up very nicely.
The springs are an easy fix for me as I've about 20 locks off of old SxS's.
The hammer will be fun though...
I'm guessing the barrel stock was cut to length with some sort of a shear, hence the pressure misshaped the muzzle.
If I can get past the hammer issue, I'm going to saw off the end 1/2" of the bbl in the hope it may be truer. If it is I'll re-solder the site back on...maybe. With a 2" bbl the sight is only good for hooking on stuff, lol.
Then...Bear defence! Riiiight....
 
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Why don't you shoot it first??? It may be OK

As for cutting the bbl back. I wouldn't do it.

If I was bound and determined to shoot it, I would likely counter bore the muzzle, just large enough in diameter to clean up the remaining rifling and just deep enough to be round again. Likely less than .100

A lot less work and you won't change the profile.

By the way, just in case you don't know, these pistols were built to be double action only.
 
I agree with bearhunter - don't cut the barrel. Try it like it is first and maybe countersink a bit if required. The geometry of the lands quite often makes a muzzle look egg-shaped when in fact there is nothing wrong with it.

Your caliper measurement might be skewed somewhat by uneven rifling wear, and there's a good chance the lands are making that muzzle look more eggshaped than it really is. In any case it's hard to make an accurate bore measurement using calipers. Slug the barrel and throat and you'll get a better idea what you're looking at. Good chance you don't need to mess with the barrel at all.

A 44 Russian case should be about .457" diameter, not .429". If a 44 Russian case chambers then I'd suspect your revolver is made for .450 Adams. An unalterd 44 Russian case should have an ID too large to fit in a .442 RIC or 44 Bulldog chamber but anything is possible with these clones.

Dozens of US and Belgian companies made Webley Bulldog style revolvers. Most of the bulldog clones I have seen were chambered in either .442 RIC (aka 44 webley), 44 Bulldog, or .450 Adams. There were some smaller bores too - .380 and .320 Revolver, as well as some rimfire models.

The .442 uses a heeled bullet about .440" diameter. The 450 Adams uses a .455" bullet. The 44 Bulldog cartridge is a shortened version of the .442 RIC. The only F&W bulldog style revolver I have looked at closely was chambered in 44 Bulldog.
 
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Oh the bore at the muzzle is most assuredly oval shaped.
I'm at work now so my brass is at home as is my micrometer.
The 44 Russian fits perfectly. The forcing cone is large enough that the nose of a loaded round is nicely enveloped.
And I tried the micrometer from different angles. That's the measurement.
Rifling wear, non existent. The machining marks are still quite evident in the grooves; this is a very low round count gun, the hammer must have broken early in it's life.
I will acknowledge the advice given here ( why ask for advice if you are just going to disregard it anyhow) and try to counterbore it should I get over the hammer repair hump.
I've been surfing the interweb trying to discover possible clues as to it's calibre. Some sources say F & W used a 44 Russian; but that seems like a pretty lively round for such a small weapon. And to try to force a .429 down and out of a .410 muzzle seems foolhardy.
I think ordering a new hammer and a copy of 'The British Bulldog; the forgotten gun that really won the west' is foremost on the to-do list. I've got brass that will fit and dies to reload it, so no hurries on that.
Thanks for the advice all, I do actually consider the replies that you've submitted.
Stay safe
 
I have both a 442 Belgian and a 450, the .44 Russian does fit my .442 very nice, as was said before, they are all different as they were pretty much made by hand! I haven't made ammo yet for either, that is a near future project! The .450 is from Argentina , a Belgian which was originally made to import to Germany, however Germany had a law on the length of the barrel 2,5/8ths I think so the Belgians made the legal barrels for import but put the front sight back an inch or so, then the germans could cut the barrel once in the country. Mine still has the long barrel and the front sight set back,, this maybe why yours might have been cut! They possibly put it in a vice while doing the cut and compressed it a tad, the metal is very soft compared to todays standards.
 
Is your bore measuremnt land to land or groove to groove? I'd be interested to know more about the rifling - is it 5 or 6 groove?
You'll have to excuse me for questioning your measurments because something does not add up. The OD of the 44 russian case is .457 - it holds a .429" bullet and the case wall is approx .014" to .015". COTW says .457" and the 44 russian starline brass i have measures .458" new from the factory. It would be interesting to see what bullet fits in that case but is meant to squeeze out of a .410" barrel. Very peculiar.
 
My co-worker has a micrometer.
Cylinder is .455 at the front and .457 at the rear.
5 groove means I'm hitting a land and a groove if I'm to measure it squarely correct? Top to bottom .381 and side to side is .412
For real. Just did it.
As I said in the OP in so many words; WTF?
 
I suspected it was a 5 groove. If it's 5 groove then that might explain some of the discrepency in the measurements. You are correct that in a 5 groove barrel you would be measuring "land to groove". In that case you need to measure and add the height of one land to get the actual bullet OD dimension that you need.
 
jethunter said:
I suspected it was a 5 groove. If it's 5 groove then that might explain some of the discrepency in the measurements. You are correct that in a 5 groove barrel you would be measuring "land to groove". In that case you need to measure and add the height of one land to get the actual bullet OD dimension that you need.
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I'm really not arguing, and trying hard not to seem disagreeable.
But both measurements are groove to land, that's a huge difference in what ought to be a round bore, no?
 
Why not just reline the barrel with some .430 bored barrel liner and have it as a really nice 44 russian handgun ?
If 44 russian chambers and cycles fine its not that big a job to drill out and reline that short barrel.
theres pleanty of meat there.
Being as its egged shaped bore anyway.
 
tokguy said:
I'm really not arguing, and trying hard not to seem disagreeable.
But both measurements are groove to land, that's a huge difference in what ought to be a round bore, no?
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Agreed, no argument there from me and sorry if it seemed I was. I was trying to figure out what bullet / cartridge it might have been built for originally.
 
dingus said:
Why not just reline the barrel with some .430 bored barrel liner and have it as a really nice 44 russian handgun ?
If 44 russian chambers and cycles fine its not that big a job to drill out and reline that short barrel.
theres pleanty of meat there.
Being as its egged shaped bore anyway.
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Great idea dingus, do you think the topstrap and frame can handle 44 Russian loads? I as because I have a Belgian 442 also and may want to do just that in the future!
 
bobdbldr said:
Great idea dingus, do you think the topstrap and frame can handle 44 Russian loads? I as because I have a Belgian 442 also and may want to do just that in the future!
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Yes if the bore is .430 the gun can handle 44 russian loads as long as there regular loads not hot loaded rounds.
The only reason that other one (from another thread awhile ago) buggered up was because the guy shot a .430 bullet down alot smaller bore if the bore is .430 or even .427 then that would not have happened.
When drilling out and orignal barrel its best to unscrew the barrel if posible and make sure theres going to be enough meat where the treads are to hold the barrel in when its done.
If you can take out the barrel its better because then the liner can have a step in it to match a step drilled bore and be pressed in from the forceing cone end.
That way it can never shoot out or move forward with a step in the process.

Im not sure if the barrels are part of the frame in this F&W or the barrels thread in but on most guns the barrels just screw into the frame.
It can be done in the one piece frame and barrel its just abit harder to do.
 
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