444 seating bullets off kilter...and general 444 discussion thread.

mikeystew

mikeystew

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i loaded some 444 this morning and noticed that a few of the bullets loaded slightly crooked. not much but enough to notice with the naked eye. it was detectable that the brass was slightly bulged more on one side of the case and the cannelure was deeper on one side.

Is there any safety concern when this happens? i wouldn't think there would be considering it is very slight, but i'd like to be safe.

Also does anyone know why this may have happened? i inspected the seating stem and it was clean.. i have only recently started loading this caliber and it is the first straight walled case i've done. it may be worth mentioning that i seated and crimped in two seperate operations with the same die... i don't know if that would affect the outcome or not.

*EDIT* i'd like to open this thread to any and all discussion based on the 444 marlin. those who like it, like it alot, and we rarely see discussion about it.
 
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I've had the same problems over the years with straightwall calibers and Lee dies. Don't use Lee anymore. I prefer Redding, but RCBS or Hornady should be fine.
 
well it's off to the EE with me then. i'll see if i can find just the seating die as the FL size and expander works fine. thanks for the help.
To hijack my own thread, do you by chance use cast for the 444? im thinking about picking up a ranchdog mould but haven't a clue where to buy gaschecks for a .432 bullet.
 
I don't cast at the moment, but will be in the near future. I use jacketed mostly, but have some that I got from MT Chambers a while back. If you get the mould, let me know as I would be interested in your results. Maybe check Mystic Precision for gas checks??
 
i will. it seems that everyone that loads 444 on marlinowners is of the certain belief that cast is the best bullet to max the potential of the round.
 
mikeystew said:
i will. it seems that everyone that loads 444 on marlinowners is of the certain belief that cast is the best bullet to max the potential of the round.
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Not really max potential but more like some of the cast bullets are designed correctly for the 444 and not the 44 mag which has a longer nose to crimp groove length. I have 11 different molds specifically designed for the 444, 4 I designed myself and the others were from group buys on cast boolits web site.

Do you have a Ballard or a microgroove 444 rifle? The Ballard will stabilize a heavier bullet up past 350 and to 420 grn. The microgroove barrels will only go to 350 gn and then the bullets will start to tumble. You just need a gas check for a 44 Magnum , they will crimp up to about .435 no problem.

This was a group buy solid bullet about 210 gn.
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This one I designed as a solid and Hollow Pointed it
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Here is a three dimensional view of the bullet.
444-1.jpg


This baby will fly at about 2350-2500 fps no problem and with accuracy like you see above from a lever gun I am really happy.

This baby I worked on with another bullet designer in the US. It is a multi-purpose bullet. First crimp groove is for a 444 Marlin, the second for a .44 Mag lever action rifle and the last one is for a .44 Mag revolver. Works great with a healthy dose of H322 and at 325 GN Hollow Pointed it packs a punch.
444.jpg
 
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I have the 24" microgroove barrel, and was wondering if the 1:38 twist would work with any of the cast bullets you mentioned?? I understand that microgrooving has a hit/miss record with cast bullets, and its more of an individual thing if your particular rifle shoots them well. Can you list some of the powders/charges WITH achieved velocities you attained?? The only bullet I have experience loading my .444 with is the venerable 265gr hornady IL. I absolutely LOVE hearing about specific loads and performance therein.
Keep it coming.
Can some of you guys list your favorite powders and bullets (you don't have to give specific recipes as these are like the Colonels secret recipe) I only have the Lee reloading manual and Living in Yellowknife, Resources are nil. I am compiling a list of items to get when I head off to Alberta next month. So your favorite POWDERS, PRIMERS, And BULLETS would surely be appreciated. (Sorry to hi-jack the thread, but I thought the O.P. question was answered, and I hate to let a good .444 thread die off!!)
 
Hunter64, im new at the cast thing but very interested. i assume you need a special tool for crimping gaschecks? where, if you dont mind me asking could i buy the tool and checks?
mine is a microgroove barrel, and to be fair i have no desire to go over 350 grains.
I really wan't to get into casting for this gun, i can imagine the right alloy mix must penetrate like a mo-fo.
 
I have loaded both jacketed and cast slugs for the .444 for a few years now. Straight wall cases are a pain when seating slugs. Make sure you get a good flair on the case mouth and seat the bullets slowly. I like cast bullets because the lube helps a bit. I use both gas check and non gas check cast bullets. The non gas check are for plinking. I don't crimp the slugs with g-checks. I tumble lube and pop the g-check on when loading. Haven't spent alot of time developing loads as of yet. I load cast bullets for five calibers so I haven't concentrated on the .444 yet.
 
The .444 is not friendly to many excellent cast bullet designs, designs by LBT, the Keith Bullet and so on, can not be used in the .444 as the OAL will be to long to feed. I have some flat point designs that can be done up at .432" for the microgroove barrels and the length is right, but I consider the .44 a better choice as you can use the LFN and WFN bullets up to 360grs. For more punch, and a caliber that is not picky about bullet length, I prefer the 45/70. So count me as 1 negative vote on the .444.
 
ben hunchak said:
For more punch, and a caliber that is not picky about bullet length, I prefer the 45/70. So count me as 1 negative vote on the .444.
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this hurts me a little as your opinions are some of the few i don't often question...but i picked up this gun for a song, and don't get me wrong it wasn't my preferred choice between a 45/70 or 444. but it's what i could afford and so i'll work with it. im not too sure about the bullet designs you mentioned though, alot of the folks in the 444 forum over at marlinowners swear by the LFNGC by beartooth bullets, maybe it's different than the LFN you are referring to. if i get a mould though it will be from ranchdog. He makes several bullet moulds for the 444 specifically, that have taken some very large dangerous game .
 
The Ranchdog molds are actually Lee molds of tumble lube design, not something i would choose to use. There are plenty of new and old mold makers out there that are using better quality materials and great designs, you may want to check out some of the group buys over on Cast Boolits. LBT has group buys as well and continue to be my first choice in quality and design for big hunting bullets.
 
I have found for Microgroove barrels that you need to size the bullets to .431 or better .432. As for powders RL-7, H-4895, IMR-3031, H-322, H-4198 to name a few and for plinking loads Unique and 2400 work great also.

I just seat the Gas Checks with my Lee push thru die then I put them in the Lyman Luber to add the grease. You can also just use the Luber to seat the checks but I found it quicker to use the push thru die.

I actually prefer the .444 over the 45/70 because everyone else likes the 45/70 and to be honest it is really easy to find bullets for and to shoot accurately. If I wanted something that to shoot that was easy I would just use my Remington 30/06 that shoots 1/2 MIA and be bored silly with.

I like a challenge and most of the time for me at the range to find the perfect load for a rifle is 90% of the fun. I have 2 45/70's in my safe, one an 1886 that is 100% original and the other is a marlin that has 1/2" of dust on it. The 1886 I will never let go, it was handed down thru 4 generations and the Marlin I couldn't care less about. To each his own.
 
Well Mikey, Ben is sort of setting you straight on these things, probably saving you some money.
I have never loaded the 444, so maybe I shouldn't be on here, but will add something about molds. I have used quite a few Lyman molds, with good results. Then for the 45-70 I got a Lee mold. Actually, I guess you could call it two molds, because it is my first and will be my last Lee.
Regarding seating the straight walled cases, they do sometimes swell out one side of the case, more than the other, and the bullet goes in a bit crooked. You originally asked about the safety of this on firing. There is no safety concern with them. Another amazing thing is they seem to shoot as straight as any other loaded round!
I wouldn't overly expand the case mouth, as has been suggested. If you do, it will greatly shorten brass life. Also, bullets with gas checks slide in the case a bit better than do flat based bullets. However, here is something I do with the flat based 45-70s. Just take the bullet and give it a few spins on that little tool that chamfers the outer side of the neck. That puts just enough "v" on the base to let it enter the case easier.
The bullets seem to go straight into the case, if you do the following. Just start the bullet in the case, then release the press handle and turn the cartridge 180 degrees. It then seems to go straight into the case.
 
now we are talkin H4831. This is the kinda real discussion I love around here. I need the pro's such as yourself to pass on these "learned hints". Some of us will never be as smart or resourceful as some of you guys, and this info helps guys like me that have no local mentor to teach me. If it weren't for this board, I'd still be shootin crappy guns, using crappy optics, shooting factory only ammo, etc And not even knowing the difference about it.
Any chance that someone could actually post a STEP by STEP guide to reloading a straight walled cartridge such as the .444 (with REAL WORLD tips to help out.) Meaning the little things YOU PERSONALLY DO when reloading your rounds from START to FINISH. The equipment you guys use, possibly showing how you adjust your dies, tricks to make things easier, how to look for subtle problems , etc) Anything on this track would be super to the straight walled rookies like me. To keep things simple at first, maybe just list how YOU reload jacketed bullets first, then we can move to the cast bullet realm. (thats a thread in itself, as I am sure the tips/tricks would be in the hundreds for that subject) Please don't say use the search function as I have tried and its exhausting to try to pick out any sense of what comes up. (which is ZERO most times) Plus only relying on the past stuff discounts what new members have to add to a past subject. Data changes, new methods to make things easier are discovered, so its not always prudent to rely on previously discussed data ONLY. Rehashing subjects allows the newer members to chime in with their new info/questions.
 
I use to have a 444 Marlin that I loaded cast and jacketed bullets for. I always had minor issues with seating of the bullet and I was using RCBS dies. As Saddletramp explained, make sure you expand the neck well, but not excessively, before you seat the bullet, and then seat the bullet slowly. I found that a Lyman Neck Expander die is much better for this than the RCBS. It's a different expansion process. Bullet allignment right at the start is very critical. The bullet seating off center got to be pretty frustrating, cause you know it's going to affect accuracy. I even resorted to starting the bullet in the case mouth by hand, which was possible after expanding the neck with the Lyman expander die.

As far as bullets are concerned, I used LBT( Lead Bullet Technology) bullets exclusively. I ordered the moulds from LBT. I purchased moulds custom made by Veral smith of LBT. I had to go custom because otherwise the bullet would be too long and the round would not chamber. I had to mail Veral a chamber impression for him to cut the crimp groove in exactly the right place on the mould. I also slugged the bore so that the bullet diameter would be an exact match. I used a lyman 450 Lubrisizer to size the bullet, lube it, and seat the gas check. I ordered a custom die from RCBS for my Lyman Lubrisizer because I couldn't find a commercial die that would size the bullet to what I wanted, based on advice from Veral Smith. We communicated via email. The bullets were two LFN( Long Flat Nose) designs, weighing 300 and 325 grains.

To make a long story short, I ended up selling the rifle, but keeping the moulds, because I tried everthing, but could not get the rifle to shoot the cast bullets accurately. The rifle had microgroove rifling and I beleive a 1:38 RH rate of twist, which was a bad combination for heavy lead bullets. I am seriously considering buying a new 444 rifle with the Ballard rifling. I can't recall if the newer rifles have a faster rate of twist or not. If they don't I won't even bother. I'll just go with a 45-70 that has Ballard rifling and a 1"20 RH twist that I know will stabilize the bullet.
 
in order to stabilize a cast bullet in a microgroove barrel with 1:38 twist you need to first oversize the gaschecked round by apx .003", so for 444 it should be at least .432, and secondly you have to max out the limits of velocity. it will only stabilize properly if its oversized and going as fast as you can get it to go safely.
Quigly, the newer 444's are indeed a 1:20 twist, marlin made the change due to peoples complaints about trying to stabilize cast bullets with poor success.
 
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