45/70-450 Marlin

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Does anyone have any specs on the 450 Marlin.
My manuals do not have the cartridge listed.
Can the 45/70 be loaded to similar specs as the 450 marlin.
I ask this intending to purchase a 1895 Marlin in 45/70.
The 1895 uses the same or similar action for both cartridges.
Because my manuals aren't up to date I would like to know how close the two cartridges are in their ballistics.
Thanks
 
In Marlin firearms you can load the 45/70 the same as the 450M, and even hotter in a bolt action or Ruger single shot, up to 50,000cup. In a marlin they are vitually ballistic equals, with the 45/70 getting maybee 5% more over the 450M when loaded to the gills. Not that any game would be able to tell the difference.
 
I've read that the 45-70 case will hold approximately 3 grains more powder then the 450 marlin, due to the 450's thicker casing, and therefore it, the 45-70, can be loaded a little hotter then the 450. But essentially they are twins, the major difference being the 45-70 is a rimmed cartridge and can only be chambered for lever action or single shot rifles, or so I've heard. If there is a bolt action rifle chambered for the 45-70 I'd be interested in hearing about it.
 
There are lots of rimmed cartridges in bolt action rifles like the 303 ,220 swift, and 30-30 to name some popular ones. I started loading my 450 in a blr pretty hot but have since toned them down. When you start a 300 grain bullet at 2700 to 2800 fps recoil is definatly noticable.
 
Rimmed cartridge

tbdtp said:
There are lots of rimmed cartridges in bolt action rifles like the 303 ,220 swift, and 30-30 to name some popular ones. I started loading my 450 in a blr pretty hot but have since toned them down. When you start a 300 grain bullet at 2700 to 2800 fps recoil is definatly noticable.
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You're right, the 303 is a rimmed cartridge and if that isn't a bolt action round then I don't know what is, thanks for the heads up. I never intended to slam the 450 marlin either, in fact I just bought a Marlin 1895m despite the fact that everybody and their dog on the internet seems to slam the 450 Marlin in favour of the 45-70. I just liked what I read about the .458 American (A.K.A the .458 x 2") and I figured the cartridge did indeed have a future. Those are some pretty impressive loads you put through your BLR. Do you think a marlins action could stand up to the same loads? Personally, I'd be just a little afraid, no a lot afraid to attempt such a load.
 
I wasn't trying to be a smart @ss but it kinda read that way. Sorry . I wouldn't try and push the 450 or 45-70 to hard in your standard lever guns I was useing the fact that the blr is avalible in high pressure cartriges like the 300 mag and 325 wsm that run at 65000 psi. The max loads for the 450 in my manuals is 36000 cup. This was the max for the Marlin I assummed as the cartridge was designed by them for their rifle ( along with hornady). I honestly don't think you can get enough powder in the 450 case to to hurt a blr and how much more stopping power does one honestly need. I bought and use mine for hunting wild boars and elk in thick bush and all the pigs died like they were hit by lightning and the one big bull elk was shot 6 times in the space of 25 sec. and fell over dead. I like the fact with slower bullets you can eat right up to the hole and the bull was a perfect example my butcher who is also a friend was amazed at the fact there was very little meat damaged for all the holes and he handed me a handful of 300 grain partions that he found while cutting him up.
 
Think of them as twins with different coloured hair. Both have their fans, but for all practical comparisons they're the same. The 45/70 fans cling to the fact the 45/70 case is ever so slightly bigger, the 450 fans are smug in their knowlege the 450 is ever so slightly faster with the same load.
The 450 was brought out specifically so the shells would not fit in a 45/70 as the older one's would blow up with the loads designed for a more modern action. The newer marlin 45/70's are what make it confusing, as they can handle the same load as the 450. Then there's the bolt actions that can be loaded above that.

For me the choice was easy as I like blr's. The 49th lyman manual has lot's of loads for all, including some cast. As long as your older manuals show loads for both the trapdoor And marlin type 45/70's you're oK. Just don't use the bolt action(ruger #1 I believe) loads.
 
The .450 Marlin is a belted .45-70. Ballistics are the same. There's load data on Hodgdon's site. Mind you, .450 Marlin brass is more expensive. Shooter's Choice, in Waterloo, wants $66.95 per 50 for Hornady brass. Remington .45-70 brass runs $52.95 per 50. .450 ammo and brass won't be everywhere either.
Loading for either depends a lot on the rifle. A modern single shot .45-70, like a Ruger, can be loaded to near .458 Win velocities. Not many, if any, non-lever actions in .450 Marlin.
 
tbdtp said:
There are lots of rimmed cartridges in bolt action rifles like the 303 ,220 swift, and 30-30 to name some popular ones. I started loading my 450 in a blr pretty hot but have since toned them down. When you start a 300 grain bullet at 2700 to 2800 fps recoil is definatly noticable.
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:eek: I hope that's either a mistake in typing or your refering to a 458M!
If not I'd sure like to know what powder your using?? Must be some W-296 or something because my 45-70 with a case full of heavily compressed 4198 (54gns) & 300gn bullets only zing up to about 2400fps.

358BLR: I have a very very nice Mauser 45-70 with Fajen stock & 25" x 1" Hex barrel that shoots & feeds very well.
Their not that rare!
 
The main reason for the 450M was to produce a factory load that compared to hand-loaded 45/70's, but which cannot be chambered and fired in old 45/70 rifles by accident.
 
Sunray - Steyr-Mannlicher makes a bolt action .450 Marlin called the Big Bore. It is available with a 3 or a 7 shot magazine, has a 22" barrel and is expensive:

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Senior - I was thinking the same thing about 300gr bullets at 2700-2800 fps. That is equal to or above top .458 Win Mag loads!
 
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