.45-70 reloading help needed.

[Claven2]

Load I used was a 405gr leab cast bullet, aloxed. Win cases, WLR primers, 40gr H4895.

Loads all ignited and fired with no keyholing, but EVERY load left maybe 15% unburnt powder in the barrel that had to be swabbed out each shot.

2 shot groups were excellent, but very inconsistant as to where they would strike the target. (ie, 2 almost touching 6" high. 2 almost touching 6" to the right, etc.)

Each 2 shot group was shot from rounds resting in the same position (ie, vertical, laying on sides, etc.) which indicates to me this load is sensitive to powder positioning and that perhaps I need to use magnum primers to cut down on unburnt powder left in the bore.

Anyone able to offer advice? Will magnum rifle primers solve the powder issue?

Can you use filler material with H4895 such as cream of wheat or cotton batt? Or do I need to switch to a powder that fills more case volume?

 

[Andy]

A few thoughts:

- I would not use filler - period. If you must have a full case, H4831 is about right, but will also leave unburnt powder.
- there is no reason to be concerned about the unburnt powder, nor do you have to remove it after each shot. Try shooting a string nd see what effect it has on accuracy, clean-up, etc. It's more likely that your swabbing after each shot will negatively affect accuracy than shooting through the unburnt powder
- try less of a faster powder such as SR4759
- if you are really adventourous, a duplex load of 3 grs of Unique under a case filled with H4831 has worked well (so I hear)

 

[chuckwagon]

Try the Magnum primers. I use Federals, they supposed to be the hottest. I use them in my Roger #1. Seem to work. IMR 3031 may be a choice also.

 

[Claven2]

No thanks for the duplex!

I think SR4759 might hold promise. The main problem with the 4895, aside from the unburnt powder, is that the amount of unburnt powder varies from shot to shot which is causing unpredicatble fliers that I attribute to positional sensitivity. Sometimes there is alot more or alot less unburnt powder than the previous shot produced. This affect pressure, velocity, and the elevation of a bullet strike at 100 meters by as much as 12 inches!

Have you used magnum primers yet Andy? I'm wondering if that might cause more complete ignition and negate the positional sensitivity to a greater degree...?

My main concern in shooting through unburnt powder is not the affect on accuracy per se, but rather the scoring effect i can have on a bore if it impeds along the body of the projectile as it travels down the tube.

 

[Andy]

I haven't tried magnum primers yet - I have stuck with about the "coolest" primers available, the CCI standard. I'd rather find a consistent, clean powder with that primer than move to Magnum, as I believe that pressure with hotter primers goes up way out of balance with any velocity increase. Low pressure = unburnt powder, so unburnt powder goes with the territory unless you use very fast powders that provide a sharp pressure spike and start with a small amount of powder (small powder charge = less to be potentially unburnt).

Anyways, I do have a few loads in the Trapdoor range I can share for the 400gr cast bullet:

Higginsons Surplus N69: 25.0 gr, 1300 fps. Consistent, very little unburnt, moderately sensitive to position

SR4759: 28.0 gr, 1370 fps. Consistent, very little unburnt, not noticeably sensitive to position

RL7: 35.0 gr, 1400. Inconsistent, lots of unburnt, quite sensitive to position. Is a dense ball powder. I have abandonned its use in this cartidge, but it is good in the 303 Brit.

H4198 - 33.0 gr, 1330 fps. Consistent, very little unburnt, moderately sensitive to position.

Marstar Surplus Swede Powder (Military flake with burn rate between Varget and H380): 52.0 gr, 1520 fps. Consistent, some unburnt, seems insensitive to position.

I developed the loads by setting an upper velocity limit and working up to it. Theoretically the slower the powder for a given velocity, the lower the pressure and the more unburnt powder.

A case full of H4831 should be just about right, but of course you should work up to it. I do intend to try the duplex, but only with a full case so that the Unique and H4831 don't get mixed even a bit. Allegedly with H4831 it increases velocity just a wee but, but eliminates unburnt powder.

Good luck - now off to the deer killing fields for me

 

[agit-prop]

Funny you should post this today Claven.

I went to the range to try out my first .45/70 handloads in my new pedersoli rolling block, and was dismayed to find approximately 15% unburnt / singed powder in my barrel. Lots of smoke in the barrel after each shot too.

My ingredients:

440 gr gas checked wax lubed bullets
remington brass
WLR primers
43 to 46.5gr of Varget

Every load produced similar results

I'm not sure it I'm going to go to magnum primers, or switch to a different powder. I may even go to pyrodex or 777.

Beleive it or not, there are pyrodex pellet loads for .45/70!
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/muzzleloading/pellets/metallic.php

 

[agilent_one]

I made up some loads for a friend (1895 Marlin) that seemed to be pretty clean. Accuracy was decent.

IMR3031 w/ Fed GM210M primers.
400gr barnes FNSP
~1800 f/s

 

[thecollector]

If you are shooting cast lead bullets in your .45-70 consider using a fast power such as Unique, which is one of the powders Lyman recommends in ALL of their cast bullet rifle loads. Unique is easy to ignite with standard primers, and burns complete in large volume cases. In my .45-70 (1903 Westly-Richards, Martini) I am running 16 gr of Unique behind a 405 gr cast, for about 1400 fps. Clean good fun 8)

 

[Claven2]

If you are shooting cast lead bullets in your .45-70 consider using a fast power such as Unique, which is one of the powders Lyman recommends in ALL of their cast bullet rifle loads. Unique is easy to ignite with standard primers, and burns complete in large volume cases. In my .45-70 (1903 Westly-Richards, Martini) I am running 16 gr of Unique behind a 405 gr cast, for about 1400 fps. Clean good fun 8)

Unique, huh? Sounds like I ought to try it. How is it for shot consistency? Do you get pressure spikes with a loading like that which might suffer from alot of positional bias?

 

[JohnC]

Don't know what kind of rifle you're shooting but hopefully the link below will help
http://www.reloadammo.com/4570load.htm

I've been using IMR 4064 (mainly because i've got lots and can also use it in 30:06, 22.250, .308 win, etc) in my Marlin Guide gun but with jacketed bullets (350 & 400gr) . use regular primers but my cases are pretty full.

most manuals list lots of 45:70 loads in levels apporpriate for old trapdoors through near .458 Mag levels.

i personally would not use pistol type powders like Unique in a 45- 70 case - too easy to get a double charge.

 

[agit-prop]

I tried Varget with magnum primers, as well as 4198 and pyrodex RS with normal primers. Varget still had about 5% unburnt powder. Pyrodex and 4198both burned without leaving anything unburnt in the barrel.

 

[Claven2]

Haven't had time to try anything new yet Too busy of late. Who makes 4198? Is it Hodgdon?

 

[Steyr101]

IMR 4198 is one of the most popular .45-70 powders, as is IMR 3031.

I have been using IMR4198 since I got my GG this fall, and have found accuracy to be best when used at a max load, specifically 50grs with a 300gr Hornady Hollow Point. That is a MAX load, but i have not found any high pressure signs.

One other thing, make sure you get bullets that are .458 and not for the more common .451 or .452 designed for handgun loads. I picked up a couple of boxes by mistake and will just use them in my muzzle loader.

I have also picked up a couple of boxes of Nosler Partition 300Gr designed specifically for the .45-70. They are mighty expensive but at the close range this gun will be used at, I don't want any bullet failure.

 

[josquin]

I went to the range last week with my Marlin 1895 and Bullet Barn 405 gr GC over 44.5 - 46gr. of RL7, Winchester brass and Win. Large Rifle Primers. I went through about 25 rounds and the bore was pretty clean when I got home. Andy's mileage is obviously different, though. (I use RL15 in my .303;might give RL7 a try as well.)

Stuart

 

[Hitzy]

40g H4895 is 20% below max (405g cast/48g/1645fps/18,900CUP/24 inch barrel), I suspect it is too low of pressure to be consistant and burn all the powder. Try 44g and work up.

 

[stocker]

Couple of things:

A good firm crimp on the bullet will help improve powder burn. The Lee Factory crimp die does this best in my experience.

Re 7 is a good choice for the 45/70. I have used it from sub 40 grain loads with fillers to maximum loads without filler. A small amount of unburned powder is common with this powder, a lot isn't. Fillers can improve things at the low end charges.

Fillers can make considerable difference in how powder is burned and it tends to improve the seal of the bullet to the bore (read as higher velocity and raised pressure). Do some studying on their correct usage. Dacron is commonly used but in straight walled cases I have also tried cream of wheat, corn meal and bran fiber in 45/70 and they all work.

Cereal fillers must be used to fill the case to a level so you get slight compression when you seat the bullet -no air space allowed. Also add the weight of the filler to the ejecta when considering loads.

The ideal filler is something like PSB (Precision Spherical Buffer from Precision Reloading) but it is expensive to use in large quantities in the 45/70 type of cases. It is best when used with large loadings of compressed slow burning powders like the 4831's and is safe to use in bottle neck cartridges.

Cast bullets should be larger than groove diameter by .001 -.002. This improves the seal and generally improves accuracy. Get a pure lead sinker of the right diameter, oil the bore and pound the sinker through with a hard wood dowel. Measure the resulting slug to get your minimum bore diameter and then get larger bullets.

Be sure your neck expansion die is adjusted correctly so you are only flaring the very end of the case. If your bullet drops into the case freely after using this die you have it adjusted incorrectly. Bullet pull (tension)again is necessary to improve combustion.

The WLR primer is considered pretty hot- some sources say hotter than the Fed 215. I usually use Fed 210's as too strong a primer can move the powder charge forward in the case resulting in poor combustion.

XMP5744 works well in the 45/70 and I get better accuracy using it in front of large pistol primers rather than large rifle primers.

IMR3031 also tends to leave unburned powder in the barrel in small amounts but it is a standard powder for the 45/70 regardless.

Try tipping your rifle muzzle skyward before shooting from the bench and see if the amount of unburned powder is reduced by having the powder in the back of the case.