45-70 Velocities help

y2k

y2k

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I have now got two pet loads for my rifles.

1. 500gr lead with 37grs IMR 3031 for a charge.

2. 405gr lead with 39grs IMR 3031 for a charge.

But my loading book doesn`t cover these low of loads:rolleyes:..... what would my velocities be in say a 24inch barrel for example?
Any help would be appreciated. Ed:)
 
Those loads are so low - about 15% below the starting loads for trapdoor rifles - that I would worry about detonation and blowing up the rifle that way.
 
My records show about 1350 for the 405gr. and just under 1300 for the 500gr. bullet, both loads did use a "Kapok" filler however.
 
I think that the hazards of detonation are often overstated particularly if a bit of filler is used to keep the charge in one mass and against the head of the case.

The second edition of Modern Reloading by Richard Lee goes into great detail with reduced loads. He states that you should have no trouble reducing loads of even the slowest powders by 20% and up to 50% with many of the faster powders.

He also includes formula for figuring out pressures and velocities of reduced loads.
 
Your loads with cards/fibre wads seated over the IMR3031 and slightly compressed by seating the respective bullet on top should be just fine !
If this load proved accurate in your rifle continue to do so.

Have used cotton as a filler for many years to take up empty air space useing pistol/shotgun powders and some rifle powders in the 45/70. Several years ago started useing a newer method..useing closed cell foam ..from on top of the powder to just under the case rim and getting compression on seating the bullet to keep any powder from migrating. This is just another version of useing fibre wads and/or cards and getting the same/ good results.

My old Lyman #42 edition gives starting load of 37.0 gr. Imr3031 at 1190 fps to max of 41.0 gr. at 1395 fps for a 405 gr jacketed bullet. (1873 Trapdoor Springfield loads 28 inch brl.)

Lyman #45 gives 40.0 grains Imr3031 as start load at 1451 fps to 46.0 grs. for 1677 fps with 482 gr GC Cast...in old Winchester 1888 model with 26 inch brl.
For reference.....In my short 22" brl. #3 Ruger 45.0 gr. Imr3031 only gets me about 1475 fps Avg. with 500 gr Lee GC ...
 
y2k said:
I have now got two pet loads for my rifles.

1. 500gr lead with 37grs IMR 3031 for a charge.

2. 405gr lead with 39grs IMR 3031 for a charge.

But my loading book doesn`t cover these low of loads:rolleyes:..... what would my velocities be in say a 24inch barrel for example?
Any help would be appreciated. Ed:)
Click to expand...

Which rifle are you shooting??
I got the best results with IMR 4198 and H4198 than any other powders in the 45-70. Accuracy was outstanding with clover leaf groups being the normal course of events.
In a Marlin Guide gun I got 1630 fps with 420 grain cast,you should be able to do better with a longer barrel.
My data was out of a Lyman book for cast bullets,so nobody here can say it's voodoo or gimmicks.
 
Not much danger of detonation with 3031. It, like 4895 can be used safely at reduced levels, with or without kapok filler. The real danger starts at slower burning numbers and certain Ball powders. Eagleye.
 
Remeber when you use a non consumed filler(corn meal cream of wheat) you have to add the weight of the filler to the weight of the bullet. I use dacron it is conusumed during firing. Just go to the dept. store and buy a dacron stuffed pillow, enough in one pillow for 15 lifetimes. 1/4 to 1 grain of dacron works well.

Andy
 
Is that an original Trap Door, or copy? I don't think I would load my original Trap Door that heavy. I have been shooting the old girl lately, but keeping it pretty light. It still can be accurate, at my light loadings.

OOPS, I didn't notice you said 1888.
 
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I have a siamese mauser, and i get 1860 fps with a gas check cast bullet, 500 grains, it is the lee round nose, and it I cast wheel wieghts. I got the load from an old Lyman book, and have checked the velocity on my chrony. It is compressed 3031 and 53 grains. It is as accurate as I am (it has iron sights) and once folded up a running moose nicely. It is not the rifle to play with at the range, as after a box of them I am bruised. It is low enough pressure that the brass lasts well but is is not reccomended for any of the actions which are of less strength. I like it because it does not exceed the velocity for which cast bullets are appropriate, and is as effective as anything if you can hit what you are looking at. I hunt in the bush, but would not hesitate a 200 yard shot at a moose, at that range I would have to hold a little high. With the recoil it has I would have no interest in loading it hotter, or getting any of the larger cartridges, like the 458 winmag, or god forbid, a 460 weatherby mag.
Allen
 
anyone ever have problems with 4198 in the 45-70?

I had one fail to fire in my #1. It pushed the bullet just up into the rifleing where it stopped.

The case came out with some powder burned and some discolored and the rest of it looked like it just came out of the can.

This was 44grs under a 300gr Sierra.
 
Rembo said:
anyone ever have problems with 4198 in the 45-70?

I had one fail to fire in my #1. It pushed the bullet just up into the rifleing where it stopped.

The case came out with some powder burned and some discolored and the rest of it looked like it just came out of the can.

This was 44grs under a 300gr Sierra.
Click to expand...


The load you refer to is not a reduced load and is capable of 1900 fps with any 300 gr. bullet. Have used IMR4198 as a "very" reduced load in about 6 different calibers includeing 45/70 and never stuck a bullet in the bore even in the 1000-1200 velocity range useing copper jacketed.

As you never stated that this occurred to you just once or the whole string with that load behaved in a similar manner and the rest of the pound of powder behaved similarly.. I would suggest the obvious provideing your powder had not been contaminated nor deteriorated....a faulty primer.

Had a bad batch of CCI primers (a Lot of 1000 primers purchased back in 1988) in which I had dozens of missfires in various rifles and some not so loud booms occasionally and relegated them to ctg. fireforming duties without useing bullets.
 
this was the 14th round fired, 10 were fired in my Marlin 1895, the next 4 in my #1....haven't fired any more of them since....have 13 left. Maybe I should pull them apart...
 
Maybe you can help me here as well.

I have a 18 inch insert bbl that fits into my 12 ga o/u shotgun.
It is chambered in 45-70>
I have shot 45-70 before in my sharps and planned on using mild loads with 405 gr cast bullets with 36 gr Reloader 7 for velocities in the 1300-1400 area

Is the 36 gr too low? will detonation occur- risky? I use fillers in one of my nitro express rifles and really dont want to go there, but i also like the Re 7 for powder in this round.
 
farshot said:
Maybe you can help me here as well.

I have a 18 inch insert bbl that fits into my 12 ga o/u shotgun.
It is chambered in 45-70>
I have shot 45-70 before in my sharps and planned on using mild loads with 405 gr cast bullets with 36 gr Reloader 7 for velocities in the 1300-1400 area

Is the 36 gr too low? will detonation occur- risky? I use fillers in one of my nitro express rifles and really dont want to go there, but i also like the Re 7 for powder in this round.
Click to expand...

I really don't know much about inserts for shot guns but know they exist in various calibers ...and if its for a 45/70 I presume you would be restricted to "Trap door Springfield " pressure loads at Max.

My Lyman # 47 gives a start load of 33.0 grains Reloder 7 at 7,800 C.U.P's and 1161 fps to a max of 41.0 grains at 1467 fps and at 13,300 CUPressure for a 420 grain cast bullet for the Springfield actions....

I think most shotgun loads operate in the 12-14,000 Cup range (if its higher someone will let us know) and your load of 36.0 gr. Re 7 should be safe without fillers ...
 
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thanks for that info. That helps me a lot, i dont check the Lyman manual - its one I dont have.
I should also mention that this is a combo o/u 12 ga with a .308 under. I would assume that as it can handle .308 pressures that it should be ok with mild 45-70 as well.
 
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