45-70...will I blow myself up???

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Due to the insane shortage of jacketed bullets (darn Hornady!!) I have been forced to purchase a can of cheapo cast bullets. They are Cactus gulch something or other, 405 grain with 3 lube grooves and no gas check.

With no loading data to go by I skimmed through Matthews "40 years with the .45-70" and came up with 45 grains of 3031. Is this a reasonable load?

Going to feed a Marlin 1895.

Once I can get them I plan to use the 350 grain Hornady flat nosed bullets, but until then a guy's gotta shoot!

Wisdom please?:)
 
this is a cut and paste from the imr / hogdon site "http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp "

their starting loads for a 400 grain bullet is 51 grains , max load is 55 grains with imr 3031 .....

45 grains is probally playing it really safe .... i don't think it might be too low to cause problems , unless it leaves a lot of empty space in the cartridge .
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Cartridge: 45-70 Government (Lever Actions)*
Load Type: Rifle
Starting Loads

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Maximum Loads

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Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

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300 GR. SIE HP IMR IMR 4064 .458" 2.525" 59.0 1858 20,300 CUP 65.5C 2125 28,700 CUP
300 GR. SIE HP IMR IMR 4895 .458" 2.525" 58.5 1800 19,900 CUP 65.0C 2087 30,000 CUP
300 GR. SIE HP Hodgdon H335 .458" 2.525" 61.0 2073 22,500 CUP 68.0 2326 38,800 CUP
300 GR. SIE HP IMR IMR 8208 XBR .458" 2.525" 60.0 2023 25,400 CUP 65.0C 2240 32,900 CUP
300 GR. SIE HP IMR IMR 3031 .458" 2.525" 58.0 1971 21,900 CUP 64.0C 2196 29,500 CUP
300 GR. SIE HP Hodgdon H322 .458" 2.525" 57.0 2002 21,400 CUP 63.0C 2252 32,600 CUP
300 GR. SIE HP IMR IMR 4198 .458" 2.525" 53.7 2293 33,100 CUP 57.2 2407 39,100 CUP
300 GR. SIE HP Hodgdon H4198 .458" 2.525" 55.0 2221 27,600 CUP 60.0 2424 40,000 CUP
350 GR. HDY JRN Hodgdon Varget .458" 2.540" 54.0 1786 21,800 CUP 60.0C 2013 29,500 CUP
350 GR. HDY JRN IMR IMR 4064 .458" 2.540" 58.0 1967 32,700 CUP 62.0C 2085 36,700 CUP
350 GR. HDY JRN IMR IMR 4895 .458" 2.540" 57.5 1891 29,200 CUP 61.0C 2026 37,200 CUP
350 GR. HDY JRN Hodgdon H335 .458" 2.540" 54.0 1903 26,000 CUP 60.0 2094 38,800 CUP
350 GR. HDY JRN Hodgdon H4895 .458" 2.540" 53.0 1784 21,700 CUP 59.0C 2045 32,900 CUP
350 GR. HDY JRN IMR IMR 8208 XBR .458" 2.540" 55.0 1930 26,800 CUP 61.0C 2152 36,200 CUP
350 GR. HDY JRN IMR IMR 3031 .458" 2.540" 56.5 2022 31,400 CUP 60.0C 2135 37,100 CUP
350 GR. HDY JRN Hodgdon Benchmark .458" 2.540" 56.0 1886 26,900 CUP 60.0C 2092 39,300 CUP
350 GR. HDY JRN IMR IMR 4198 .458" 2.540" 47.0 2032 32,500 CUP 50.0 2131 36,600 CUP
350 GR. HDY JRN Hodgdon H4198 .458" 2.540" 48.5 2036 32,200 CUP 54.0 2191 39,300 CUP
400 GR. SPR JFP Hodgdon Varget .458" 2.540" 50.0 1655 18,600 CUP 55.0C 1845 25,000 CUP
400 GR. SPR JFP IMR IMR 4064 .458" 2.540" 53.5 1808 29,700 CUP 57.0C 1918 36,400 CUP
400 GR. SPR JFP IMR IMR 4895 .458" 2.540" 54.0 1785 30,500 CUP 58.0C 1930 38,600 CUP
400 GR. SPR JFP Hodgdon H335 .458" 2.540" 52.0 1798 25,400 CUP 58.0 1995 40,000 CUP
400 GR. SPR JFP Hodgdon H4895 .458" 2.540" 50.0 1614 19,200 CUP 55.0C 1859 26,500 CUP
400 GR. SPR JFP IMR IMR 3031 .458" 2.540" 51.0 1809 26,900 CUP 55.0C 1971 37,300 CUP
400 GR. SPR JFP Hodgdon Benchmark .458" 2.540" 55.0 1856 29,600 CUP 58.5C 1986 40,000 CUP
400 GR. SPR JFP Hodgdon H322 .458" 2.540" 50.0 1767 23,700 CUP 55.0C 1984 39,200 CUP
400 GR. SPR JFP IMR IMR 4198 .458" 2.540" 43.0 1868 31,600 CUP 46.0 1960 37,600 CUP
400 GR. SPR JFP Hodgdon H4198 .458" 2.540" 46.0 1854 29,500 CUP 50.5 2002 39,400 CUP


NEVER EXCEED MAXIMUM LOADS
 
The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook also lists a bunch of loads. FYI my Lee Modern Reloading book (second edition) lists both cast and jacketed loads for that cal. Nothing cheap about loading cast either-my 38-55 apparently prefers it and boolits are wayyy cheaper. Allows you to roll your own.
 
i would just start there then bump it up till you either reach max load or see pressure or barrell leading (or as accuracy dictates)
 
FWIW I bought a Chrony recently(off of the EE) so I will have an idea of the pressures I am at with loads. The Winchester 1894 I have is dated 1900 so very early into the smokeless powder range and they say the max is 1800fps for that but I will run it up to 1700 to leave a safety margin. You might try google for 45/70 and see what comes up. I found acres of stuff for the 38-55 so there should be heaps for the 45/70.
 
The 45-70 in the Marlin is one calibre that I reach top loads on not by pressure signs, but by how much I am willing to let my head be jolted on firing!
The top loads listed in books are extremely, (my thinking) uncomfortable to shoot. Also, most powders I've tried, produce a mid power load that is well within the accuracy range of general plinking and casual target shooting. The two that I have found best for this are 4198 and 4895, with the nod going to 4895.
And don't bother asking which make, Hodgdon's or IMR. Just use which ever one your hand picks up when you reach onto the powder shelf.
 
I don't understand why anyone shooting a 45-70 (or 450 Marlin) would be reloading Jacketed bullets. You're only pushing a 400gr slug about 1800fps and a 300-350gr'er around 2000fps. Cast bullets are WAY cheaper and produce exceptional accuracy. You can also load down to low velocity (1000fps) making a really nice practice/plinking round. That 1895 is a lot of fun and easy to carry on a hunt.
 
Marlin 1895 have very smooth barrels, and I don't just mean the micro groove, but also the Ballard cut type.
I think barrel quality is a vital factor in whether or not it leads.
I shoot flat base 420 grain bullets in mine, with 45 grains of 4895. This would be very similar to 45 of 3031 and I don't get any lead. In fact, my barrel is so lead free that I have not been able to test out a solvent, to see if it takes the lead out!
 
Checked a old lyman book

385g cast with gas check Imr 3031 start 42.0 ---- max 48.0
vel 1492 ---- vel 1745

so at 45g you are in the ball park for a 400g
 
I have about 2 boxes of 400gr jacketed bullets loaded up right now with 50gr of 3031 and they are great. Controllable but powerful enough. I would hunt nearly anything with them and the brass would probably last a long long time.

Most of my cast are with 8-13 gr of unique and the full power 420's I load I use 40-42gr of IMR4198 or 45gr of H4198. I'm pretty sure I'm within a safe level but make sure you do more research.. just some ideas.
 
lyktohunt said:
Am I correct that there may be an issue in using cast bullets in the older micro groove barrels due to leading
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I didn't mean it that way. I have a 44 mag Marlin with micro groove and do not have a leading problem.
It was just that for many years Marlin advertised their micro groove barrels as being so smooth, so I was pointing out that Ballard cut barrels were also smooth.
 
lyktohunt said:
Am I correct that there may be an issue in using cast bullets in the older micro groove barrels due to leading
Click to expand...

You may have to size your bullets larger than .458 for a micro groove barrel.
I shoot a 30/30 with a microgroove barrel. Bullets sized to .311 are deadly accurate. Bullets sized to .309 cause leading and shoot all over.
 
400 grain bullets doing 1850-2000ft/s is why I'm getting an 1895 ASAP.

I've been curious though - there are 458 bullets in the 600+ grains, I wonder if it's possible to cut a small cannelure for the crimp is far enough up the bullet that the OAL isn't too long for the action, and use a reduced powder load to get a stupidly heavy bullet going near supersonic? ####s and giggles really. Subsonic loads tend to interest me for some odd reasons.
 
Meph said:
400 grain bullets doing 1850-2000ft/s is why I'm getting an 1895 ASAP.

I've been curious though - there are 458 bullets in the 600+ grains, I wonder if it's possible to cut a small cannelure for the crimp is far enough up the bullet that the OAL isn't too long for the action, and use a reduced powder load to get a stupidly heavy bullet going near supersonic? s**ts and giggles really. Subsonic loads tend to interest me for some odd reasons.
Click to expand...

There are a few bullets around in the 525gr that are designed for lever gun lengths. Beartooth bullets makes one and people have been running them up to about 1500fps.

RCBS still makes a mould for a 500gr bullet that'll work in a Marlin.

Personally I stick with the 405gr bullets in my lever guns (although I do own that RCBS mould). The longer heavier bullets I save for my single shot rifles.

Chris.
 
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