.45 ACP case trimming
- Thread starter Sharps '63
- Start date
The revolvers you speak of all require moon clips unless you were using .45 Auto Rim. The Auto Rim was the .45acp with a rim on on to negate the use of a moon clip. Cut some cases down to .850 and see how you make out.
Yes, the revolvers mentioned were designed to use clips, but - the .45 Auto-rim cartridge came out AFTER WWI. Tens of thousands of Colt and S&W '17's were capable of firing the .45 ACP cartridge without clips. It wasn't the only such gun:
"During 1917-18 over 150,000 of this model (Colt New Service) were sold to the US government chambered for the .45 ACP cartridge and with a head space of .090+ so that this rimless cartridge could be loaded and ejected using three shot half moon clips.
On early production the cartridges seated so deeply in the chambers that the firing pins pin could not reach them unless they were inserted on the clips. Later this was remedied to permit the cylinder to be loaded with loose cartridges in emergency, but since the extractor had no hold on the rimless case, it was necessary to punch or pry the empties out of the chambers of the cylinder.
After WWI a .45 Auto-rim cartridge was brought out for commercial distribution obviating the need for clips." Smith's "Book of Pistols & Revolvers".
Again I ask - what's the issue over headspace so long as the firing pin can hit the primer with sufficient force to cause it to detonate? Ady yes, I intend to shoot some short .45 ACP rds to see what happens. You'll be among to first to know ....
"During 1917-18 over 150,000 of this model (Colt New Service) were sold to the US government chambered for the .45 ACP cartridge and with a head space of .090+ so that this rimless cartridge could be loaded and ejected using three shot half moon clips.
On early production the cartridges seated so deeply in the chambers that the firing pins pin could not reach them unless they were inserted on the clips. Later this was remedied to permit the cylinder to be loaded with loose cartridges in emergency, but since the extractor had no hold on the rimless case, it was necessary to punch or pry the empties out of the chambers of the cylinder.
After WWI a .45 Auto-rim cartridge was brought out for commercial distribution obviating the need for clips." Smith's "Book of Pistols & Revolvers".
Again I ask - what's the issue over headspace so long as the firing pin can hit the primer with sufficient force to cause it to detonate? Ady yes, I intend to shoot some short .45 ACP rds to see what happens. You'll be among to first to know ....
None of the 'experts' seem willing to comment on the ability of Colt and S&W 1917 revolvers to digest .45 ACP rounds WITHOUT using half moon clips; head spacing issues notwithstanding.
But, it is deemed to be critical in a 1911 with mixed brass of unknown lengths ......
But, it is deemed to be critical in a 1911 with mixed brass of unknown lengths ......
Hit a primer with a nail and it likely will go off. Doesn't mean a damn thing. It wasn't the way the guns were shot. I know you know exactly what you are talking about and all the folks for the past 100 odd years who think the .45acp cartridge headspaces off the case mouth are just so dumb. You in time, I am sure will enlighten all who remain unconvinced. One has to wonder why Ruger bothered to ream their convertible cylinders for the .45acp the way they did. I guess they should have consulted you first.
Take Care
Bob
Take Care
Bob
- Location
- Peace River, Alberta
That's his MO.
Read the posts. The .45acp headspaces off the case mouth. Has for 100 years. The fact you might set off a primer due to a case hanging on the extractor doesn't change the fact. You seem hell bent to prove a point that hardly needs proving. As mentioned in previous posts shorten a .45acp case short enough and you will soon experience FTF's. Nothing new to that. You don't have to pee on an electric fence to know the result...well some do I guess.
Get a DA.45acp revolver and try shooting it with no moon clips. Let us know how you manage the reloads. and how well it fired. IIRC my 625 firing pin couldn't reach the cartridge without using moon clips but perhaps you may experience a different result.
Take Care
Bob
I see
So you would presume to discount what I posted from Smith's "Book of Pistols & Revolvers". Fine. You're entitled to. You don't even need to cite your sources, authority or experience on the matter or pee on an electric fence to support them.
We aren't talking about current DA revolvers chambered in .45 ACP, but the Colt & S&W '17's of the WWI era; or did you miss that?
Unlike you, I did read the posts. I'm satisfied that the common knowledge is that .45 ACP rds chamber on the case mouth in a 1911, despite variance in case length, to a point where the firing pin cannot reach the primer.
We aren't talking about current DA revolvers chambered in .45 ACP, but the Colt & S&W '17's of the WWI era; or did you miss that?
Unlike you, I did read the posts. I'm satisfied that the common knowledge is that .45 ACP rds chamber on the case mouth in a 1911, despite variance in case length, to a point where the firing pin cannot reach the primer.
Well I have only shot two old 1917 revolvers chambered in .45acp and they required moon clips to function. Without a rim, the case just slid into the chambers. I am not sure how or why anyone during WW1 would attempt to fire one of these revolvers without moon clips in anger but maybe. Ruger makes a convertible Blackhawk that shoots the .45acp cartridge without moon clips. The company machines the chambers with a ridge, so the case is stopped from going forward by the case mouth hitting the ridge. Mine works well enough as long as their are no burrs on the case rim from extracting from an auto. If there is, the case sometimes binds up the cylinder as they won't fully seat. I now keep my brass for the Ruger separate.
Take Care
Bob
Take Care
Bob
I was well into a lengthy quote from Hatcher's notebook on the topic when I inadvertently hit a key and it disappeared into the ether ..... Damned if I'm going to retype it all!
Suffice it to say that he successfully and safely fired .45 ACP rds in W&S semi-autos. Loaded from the magazine, they fired and functioned. Chambered individually, not, as the extractor did not hold the case in position for the firing pin to strike the primer.
Same for .380 ACP rds in the Luger and P-38, with the same results. Ditto for .45 ACP and .455 Webley rds in the Colt New Service. In all cases he gives the head space differences which varied from .025" to .051".
But what the hell did Major General Julian Hatcher know about it. He was only the head of the US Army Springfield Arsenal and a recognized authority on small arms for decades.
"In all of the above shooting, accuracy was excellent and no bad results of any kind were observed. The only trouble to be expected was a possibility of hangfires or misfires from having the primer too far away from the firing pin - but even this did not occur. Maj. Gen. Julian S. Hatcher
Suffice it to say that he successfully and safely fired .45 ACP rds in W&S semi-autos. Loaded from the magazine, they fired and functioned. Chambered individually, not, as the extractor did not hold the case in position for the firing pin to strike the primer.
Same for .380 ACP rds in the Luger and P-38, with the same results. Ditto for .45 ACP and .455 Webley rds in the Colt New Service. In all cases he gives the head space differences which varied from .025" to .051".
But what the hell did Major General Julian Hatcher know about it. He was only the head of the US Army Springfield Arsenal and a recognized authority on small arms for decades.
"In all of the above shooting, accuracy was excellent and no bad results of any kind were observed. The only trouble to be expected was a possibility of hangfires or misfires from having the primer too far away from the firing pin - but even this did not occur. Maj. Gen. Julian S. Hatcher
