.45 Colt Auto with the Canadian Army-WW1

[x westie]

I read somewhere ..or sometime ago that when the Canadian Army or the Canadian Expedionary Force ..as it was refered to..at the begining of WW1 the officer's were issued .45 colt automatic's purchased from the neutral U.S.....BUT...later during the war..Colt .455 or S/W revolvers were issued...were no more 45 colt auto's purchased because the U.S were short of these pistols.???..and also what happened to these pistols after the end of WW1.....curious to know how many of these pistols survived and what happened to them..???the .45 colt auto didn't seem to play a very prominent role with the Canadian Army in ww2.....38/200 S/W revolvers were common issue.

 

[Brutus]

I read some where of something refering to this, that is, WW1 issue of Colt 1911s,to Canadian Army troops...but I think they were in calibre 455 Webley.
Someone here has to know....

 

[smellie]

I have seen and handled commercial WWI period 1911s in calibre .455 Webley Automatic, used in small numbers in the Canadian Army. Ammo was the same as the British Webley Automatic pistol; this is NOT the revolver cartridge.

These things also exist with formation markings, but it was a long time ago and I can't remember what they were. I know I have seen a Navy one.

 

[Nyles]

Actually, if you look at GrantRCanada's article posted at canadiansoldiers.com, or the Standard Catalogue of Military Firearms, they were standard Colt commercial models in .45ACP. The Canadian government bought 5000 to arm the first contingent of Canadian soldiers to go to WW1, the second contingent was armed with S&W .455 Hand Ejectors. Given that the switch was in 1915, long before the US entered the war, I'd wager that it was due to the realisation that, while having the latest and greatest was nice, they still had to get ammo from British supply lines.

I think most of the Colt's postwar were sold out of service, but I'm not sure. In WW2 another 4000-odd M1911A1s were acquired from the US government and used primarily to arm 1 Canadian Parachute Battalion before they got the Inglis in 1944.

 

[John Sukey]

And the troops had a big problem convincing the govt. to buy spare magazines. The guns only came with one mag.

Guess the supply boffins were still thinking revolver.

Really don't think it was an ammo supply problem. If they could buy the guns, surely the government could supply ammunition.

 

[GrantR]

Yes, the 5000 M1911 pistols purchased by Canada in 1914 were all chambered in standard .45ACP - it was the British who got theirs chambered for the .455 Webley Auto cartridge, since they already had that ammo in their "inventory" for the Webley Self Loading pistols. To my knowledge, Canada did not acquire any M1911's chambered in .455 - there may have been officers who privately purchased that version, mind you ....

The Canadian pistols were all 1914 Commercial production, so they had beautiful high-polish oven blue finish and the very nice "double diamond" chequered walnut grips.

As to what happened to them all - I do know where at least one of them happens to be ... ...

This particular pistol was sold by the Government to one Major W.A. Mitchell:

He retained it until he sold it in 1941 to a fresh young Canadian Army Lieutenant, K.B. Knox, from whom I acquired it a few years ago.

 

[Stevo]

Grant,
That pistol, especially with the provenance, is a real treasure. Thanks for sharing.

 

[green]

Colt Govt .45ACP was also bought in quantity by Britain. In 1917 100000 rounds of 45ACP was issued each month on Western front as was a similar amount of .455 Auto.

 

[Brutus]

Very cool subject, thank you for sharing....

 

[woodchopper]

some were issued to tankers in WW2.

My father trained with 1911 and thompson sub guns in Borden.

Later they were replaced with stens and hipowers

 

[pitdogboy]

what a sweet piece of Canadiana! Soooo do you want to sell it?

 

[x westie]

re: Tommy Guns

some were issued to tankers in WW2.

My father trained with 1911 and thompson sub guns in Borden.

Later they were replaced with stens and hipowers

Interesting about the troops training with the Thompson SMG at Borden...i was always under the impression that the TSMG was only issued to Canadian troops in Italy...when these troops were sent to North/West Europe they had to turn in the TSMG.. and were issued Sten guns..which they didnt much like...

 

[Halger280HVMag]

My father, the late Brig. Gen. Dollard Menard Can. Army, 1913-1997, landed on the beach at Dieppe France on August 19 1942.

His sidearm was a Colt 1911 marked .455 Webley. I now have that pistol in my possession.

His primary weapon was the Thompson 1928A1 fed by 20 round stick magazines.

 

[x westie]

re: Thompson SMG at Dieppe

My father, the late Brig. Gen. Dollard Menard Can. Army, 1913-1997, landed on the beach at Dieppe France on August 19 1942.

His sidearm was a Colt 1911 marked .455 Webley. I now have that pistol in my possession.

His primary weapon was the Thompson 1928A1 fed by 20 round stick magazines.

Thanks for your input...it's interesting about your father armed with TSMG. at Dieppe....the Dieppe raid was also the first use of the Sten gun in combat..by Canadian troops...the sten gun didn't have come out of Dieppe with a good reputation..too many stoppages....mainly with the magazines...the Thompson ..a excellent weapon...your father made a good choice.

 

[John Sukey]

Yes, the 5000 M1911 pistols purchased by Canada in 1914 were all chambered in standard .45ACP - it was the British who got theirs chambered for the .455 Webley Auto cartridge, since they already had that ammo in their "inventory" for the Webley Self Loading pistols. To my knowledge, Canada did not acquire any M1911's chambered in .455 - there may have been officers who privately purchased that version, mind you ....

The Canadian pistols were all 1914 Commercial production, so they had beautiful high-polish oven blue finish and the very nice "double diamond" chequered walnut grips.

As to what happened to them all - I do know where at least one of them happens to be ... ...

This particular pistol was sold by the Government to one Major W.A. Mitchell:

He retained it until he sold it in 1941 to a fresh young Canadian Army Lieutenant, K.B. Knox, from whom I acquired it a few years ago.

That .45 looks like it was just umwrapped from the factory paper. I would be afraid to shoot it for fear of decreasing the value

 

[P.E. Islander]

My brother has a .45 ACP Colt 1911 that was owned by an officer of the Prince Edward Island Light Horse Regiment. Not sure if this was a private purchase or an issued item. This pistol was carried "over there" in WW1 and was carried again by this officer in WW2 (but not overseas). I looked the serial # of this one up and it was made in 1914, IIRC.

My brother also has a Colt 1911 in .455 Webley Automatic that I believe was also owned by an officer from P.E.I.

Both were obtained from the estates of the original owners and came with the original holsters. While both guns are in good condition they both suffer from very poor bores - not surprising with the ammo of the day. The quality, fit and finish of these pistols is superb.

A pretty cool connection with local and world history, IMO.

 

[x westie]

comparing the .455 Webley vs the .45 ACP colt

My brother has a .45 ACP Colt 1911 that was owned by an officer of the Prince Edward Island Light Horse Regiment. Not sure if this was a private purchase or an issued item. This pistol was carried "over there" in WW1 and was carried again by this officer in WW2 (but not overseas). I looked the serial # of this one up and it was made in 1914, IIRC.

My brother also has a Colt 1911 in .455 Webley Automatic that I believe was also owned by an officer from P.E.I.

Both were obtained from the estates of the original owners and came with the original holters. While both guns are in good condition they both suffer from very poor bores - not surprising with the ammo of the day. The quality, fit and finish of these pistols is superb.

A pretty cool connection with local and world history, IMO.

It would be interesting to hear user's opinion of the Colt 1911 , how these pistols were to fire with either the .45ACP and the .455 Webley cartridge.

 

[GrantR]

what a sweet piece of Canadiana! Soooo do you want to sell it?

Umm ... NO!

 

[GrantR]

.... I would be afraid to shoot it for fear of decreasing the value ....

John:

Do you mean to suggest that I shouldn't be shooting it?

 

[GrantR]

It would be interesting to hear user's opinion of the Colt 1911 , how these pistols were to fire with either the .45ACP and the .455 Webley cartridge.

Well, as John has noted, mine is so near "new" - and still in original configuration - that it is actually rather stiff, with a fairly hefty trigger pull.

Mind you, I understand that was an intentional design characteristic, since at the time the M1911 was adopted by the United States, it was anticipated that it would be used by mounted troops - you don't want anything approaching a "hair trigger" with a sidearm which is likely to be carried cocked, with a live round in the chamber, at a gallop on horseback!