450 Marlin, 250 Monoflex. Zero expansion.

Hugh Mann

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So today I packed 43 grains of H4198 behind 250 grain monoflex bullets. Not a listed load, but I used the data for the 325 FTX, which has all the same dimensions. (My mistake was likely misreading and using the IMR4198 section a max load difference of 44 vs 45.4 grains)

Anyways. I shot them into a stack of wet paper, along with some 30cal monos from my shiny new R1. Same ranges, 25, 50 and 100. All the 30cals went about 10" or so and had perfect expansion. The 250 Monoflexs, the rubber tips were pushed in, but beyond that, zero expansion. Zilch. Nothing. They also went 18" into the paper.

So, before I go load up more ammo and burn expensive powder.
Would that extra 2.7ish grains of powder really make a difference from zero expansion to good?
Has anyone else loaded or shot 250 monos with similar results, or did you get it to expand?
450 Marlin is rated to roughly 40,000 c.u.p, and so is the 1895 45-70, which lists up to 52.2 grains. I'm guessing it can be that much because of the extra case length, but seems to me like a lot more powder can go into a 450 marlin case too, or is there something I am missing?

I usually stick to the book loads, so this is unfamiliar territory.
 
the general rule is that a lighter bullet uses more powder 75grains is quite a difference i would suggest start with max load for the 325FTX and work up from there
 
Using the data for another bullet with the same dimensions doesn't make a lot of sense. The bullet weight is the main indicator of pressure which will determine powder charge. Mono bullets also do made of lighter metals so may appear similar in size and shape to a heavier traditional led core bullet. You might need to contact the manufacturer for specific load data or start work data for a similar weighted bullet.
 
barnes mono and hornady mono shared a lot in common including weight and mono part but hornady is not publishing any datas for the 450 marlin and his particular powder choice ...
 
Quickload suggests the MV should be around 2100 fps from a 18.5" barrel

Code:
Cartridge          : .450 Marlin
Bullet             : .458, 250, Hornady Monoflex 45010
Useable Case Capaci: 51.089 grain H2O = 3.317 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.550 inch = 64.77 mm
Barrel Length      : 18.5 inch = 469.9 mm
Powder             : IMR 4198

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-10.0   92    38.70   1902    2009   28697   3371     82.2    1.155
-09.0   93    39.13   1921    2048   29357   3421     82.7    1.144
-08.0   94    39.56   1939    2087   30035   3471     83.2    1.133
-07.0   95    39.99   1957    2126   30732   3521     83.7    1.122
-06.0   96    40.42   1975    2166   31448   3570     84.2    1.111
-05.0   97    40.85   1994    2207   32185   3619     84.6    1.100
-04.0   98    41.28   2012    2248   32941   3668     85.1    1.090
-03.0   99    41.71   2031    2289   33718   3717     85.6    1.079
-02.0  100    42.14   2049    2332   34518   3765     86.1    1.069
-01.0  101    42.57   2068    2374   35340   3813     86.5    1.058
[B]+00.0  102    43.00   2087    2417   36184   3861     87.0    1.048[/B]
+01.0  103    43.43   2106    2461   37055   3908     87.5    1.038
+02.0  104    43.86   2124    2505   37949   3955     87.9    1.028
+03.0  105    44.29   2143    2550   38870   4002     88.3    1.018
+04.0  106    44.72   2162    2595   39816   4048     88.8    1.008
+05.0  107    45.15   2181    2641   40792   4093     89.2    0.998  ! Near Maximum !

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    102    43.00   2204    2697   41526   4070     93.8    0.992  ! Near Maximum !
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    102    43.00   1954    2121   31240   3514     78.1    1.114
 
That bullet is designed to expand from 1400 fps to 2500 fps.

Like stated above, Hornady data lists IMR 4227, Accurate 5744 and Viht N-120.

They list more choices for the 45-70, which is odd because the two are somewhat similar. I assume you are trimming your cases to 2.040 and loading to an OAL of 2.587". I'm curious, are you near 100% loading density?

hiQZxw0.jpg


I'd say with 43 gr you'd be in the 1800 fps range, they should expand, unless you did not trim your cases, then you may be under 1400 fps.
 
Oh yeah? do they list that in the manual or something? They don't seem to be all that forthcoming with that info on their website, at least not that I could find.

Yes, in manual #10. I don't know about 9, but that bullet is not in #8. I don't buy every manual, mostly I buy every second manual of the majors. Online is a bit sketchy, web sites are designed and maintained by call centers in Asia, gun guys have very little input on the web sites. IMNSHO.

xELmYAa.jpg


I've never bought a box of these, I'm curious, did they include the trim to 2.040" info with the bullets?

Nitro

The 45-70 may give you a bit more insight.

5OZmUvO.jpg


I usually chronograph my loads that I perform expansion testing on, guessing at velocity is just not good enough. Also a valuable tool for load development.
 
Last edited:
Didn't need to trim my brass, everything I've shot so far was factory FTX, so cases were already shortened. Pretty much the reason I chose the monoflex over the TSX. I had assumed it would be more a case volume than pressure, but evidently even after doing it for 4 years, I still have things to learn about hand loading. I checked the 250 Barnes data. Calls for a minimum of 51 grains of H4198, so that is almost certainly my issue. Just not enough jam, thus for round two I will try significantly more powder, see how it goes.

Sadly I do not have a chronograph, nor do I know anyone with one. Been on my shopping list for ages, maybe I'll have to bump it up the priority list.
 
Didn't need to trim my brass, everything I've shot so far was factory FTX, so cases were already shortened. Pretty much the reason I chose the monoflex over the TSX. I had assumed it would be more a case volume than pressure, but evidently even after doing it for 4 years, I still have things to learn about hand loading. I checked the 250 Barnes data. Calls for a minimum of 51 grains of H4198, so that is almost certainly my issue. Just not enough jam, thus for round two I will try significantly more powder, see how it goes.

Sadly I do not have a chronograph, nor do I know anyone with one. Been on my shopping list for ages, maybe I'll have to bump it up the priority list.

Most of us are on some kind of budget, and we want the most bang for the buck. (Pun intended) Chrono testing is a commitment, the chrono itself can be inexpensive, I use a Chrony, and they are in the $100 to $200 price group with other skyscreen chronographs. For the few with a little better budget, the radar ones that will give you velocities to the target.

I use a camera tripod to position my Chrony. I also use a rest of sorts, shooting holes in the skyscreens significantly hinders their performance, it kills them. I've learned from experience that if the bullet gets too high above the skyscreen, reading velocity becomes iffy. So, I have tape marking that height. Don't forget to take into account the distance between the sight or scope and the bore.

It takes me about 15 minutes to set up, so I like to have a few loads to test. in the case of load development, I usually just reload my brass and repeat. Even still, load testing can take up the better part of a day.

I just finished a session, with my 44-40. I ran out of my old Hercules Red Dot and had bought a can of Alliant Red Dot. It says on the container newly formulated, so a quick check to confirm that my old loading recipe was still ok should suffice. Or so I thought.

My very decent load was now a very poor performer. I tried different weights of powder and 4 different primers. In the end i ended up having to lower the charge and use a different primer to get the load to work almost as good as it was with the old powder. This is fairly typical with handgun loads in the Cowboy velocity and pressure range. Rifles are as a rule a higher pressure cartridge with more powder. Primer selection is a bit less dramatic, and there isn't much need to test powder position consistency. But still a process and a commitment with a bit of record keeping.

On the plus side, it takes you to the next level in handloading. Expansion testing is another "taking it to the next level" process.

Expansion testing without ballistic gel is a bit unscientific, but with a bit of ingenuity, you can get decent results. The challenge to testing is the expansion media. For simple tests, milk jugs full of water will suffice. I've also used the paper from my shredder soaked with water. The problem with paper is that the hollow point sometimes fills with paper and the bullet acts as a solid. This happens on game as well, The hair and thick hide on a wild boar is like bullet proof armor.

Paul Harrell has a few videos and he uses a milk jug and a layer of towels, and then uses a meat target with oranges to simulate the lungs. I'm not too excited about spending $50 on groceries to test expansion, but it does mimic real life. If my intended game was wild boar, I'd want to take the hair and thick hide into account.

mVdoGQi.jpg


This was some testing with 9mm and HP bullets to test for suitability in a 9mm carbine to be used as a farmyard gun. Depending on the vermin needing dispatching, bullet performance can be an important factor. And with a 9mm, using factory FMJ is foolish. A rabid skunk or racoon, or a calf killing coyote is serious predator control, life and livelihood are at risk, you do not want to be under gunned. Not using enough gun or bad bullets turns a routine task into a disaster, quick. And unfortunately the blame is all on you and your choices of gun and ammo.

Your gun is a 450 Marlin, you have chosen enough gun. You are testing expansion, so you are well on the way to selecting good ammo.

I'm not a fan of recoil, my biggest rifle is a 350 Rem Mag. I selected a 200 gr Hornady FTX. Deer and Black bear are my intended target. I did contact Hornady about this bullet in the 350, as my velocity was at the top end of the recommended velocity range. They suggested that the bullet would be best not used at handshake distance. Chrono testing confirmed my velocity and I had to back down a grain to get the accuracy I wanted. Considering the scarcity of factory ammo, having a good handload was important.

Actually, my experience with the FTX compelled me to comment on your thread. I tend to not comment on threads where my experience is not directly related to the subject. My hope is that I was able to help in some small way.

Take care, you are on the right track.

PS: I'd probably be tempted to find some Vihtavuori powder, the velocity advantage is just too great to ignore, IMHO.
 
Quickload suggests the MV should be around 2100 fps from a 18.5" barrel

Code:
Cartridge          : .450 Marlin
Bullet             : .458, 250, Hornady Monoflex 45010
Useable Case Capaci: 51.089 grain H2O = 3.317 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.550 inch = 64.77 mm
Barrel Length      : 18.5 inch = 469.9 mm
Powder             : IMR 4198

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-10.0   92    38.70   1902    2009   28697   3371     82.2    1.155
-09.0   93    39.13   1921    2048   29357   3421     82.7    1.144
-08.0   94    39.56   1939    2087   30035   3471     83.2    1.133
-07.0   95    39.99   1957    2126   30732   3521     83.7    1.122
-06.0   96    40.42   1975    2166   31448   3570     84.2    1.111
-05.0   97    40.85   1994    2207   32185   3619     84.6    1.100
-04.0   98    41.28   2012    2248   32941   3668     85.1    1.090
-03.0   99    41.71   2031    2289   33718   3717     85.6    1.079
-02.0  100    42.14   2049    2332   34518   3765     86.1    1.069
-01.0  101    42.57   2068    2374   35340   3813     86.5    1.058
[B]+00.0  102    43.00   2087    2417   36184   3861     87.0    1.048[/B]
+01.0  103    43.43   2106    2461   37055   3908     87.5    1.038
+02.0  104    43.86   2124    2505   37949   3955     87.9    1.028
+03.0  105    44.29   2143    2550   38870   4002     88.3    1.018
+04.0  106    44.72   2162    2595   39816   4048     88.8    1.008
+05.0  107    45.15   2181    2641   40792   4093     89.2    0.998  ! Near Maximum !

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    102    43.00   2204    2697   41526   4070     93.8    0.992  ! Near Maximum !
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    102    43.00   1954    2121   31240   3514     78.1    1.114

Hey Bud Could you run that same bullet in that Cartridge with H322 Powder - Thks RJ
 
Hey Bud Could you run that same bullet in that Cartridge with H322 Powder - Thks RJ

Don't you have QL?


I posted yesterday using IMR 4198, my mistake

Code:
Cartridge          : .450 Marlin
Bullet             : .458, 250, Hornady Monoflex 45010
Useable Case Capaci: 51.101 grain H2O = 3.318 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.550 inch = 64.77 mm
Barrel Length      : 18.5 inch = 469.9 mm
Powder             : [COLOR=#ff0000][B]Hodgdon H4198[/B][/COLOR]

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-10.0   87    38.70   1823    1844   28796   3108     75.0    1.191
-09.0   88    39.13   1841    1882   29467   3155     75.5    1.179
-08.0   89    39.56   1860    1920   30158   3202     76.0    1.167
-07.0   90    39.99   1878    1958   30868   3248     76.5    1.155
-06.0   91    40.42   1897    1997   31598   3295     77.0    1.143
-05.0   92    40.85   1915    2037   32349   3342     77.5    1.132
-04.0   93    41.28   1934    2077   33121   3388     78.0    1.120
-03.0   94    41.71   1953    2117   33915   3435     78.5    1.109
-02.0   95    42.14   1972    2158   34734   3481     79.0    1.097
-01.0   96    42.57   1991    2200   35574   3527     79.5    1.086
+00.0   97    43.00   2010    2242   36441   3573     79.9    1.075
+01.0   98    43.43   2028    2284   37332   3619     80.4    1.064
+02.0   99    43.86   2047    2327   38251   3665     80.9    1.054
+03.0  100    44.29   2067    2371   39195   3710     81.4    1.043
+04.0  101    44.72   2086    2415   40170   3755     81.8    1.032
+05.0  102    45.15   2105    2459   41171   3800     82.3    1.022  ! Near Maximum !

Results caused by ± 5% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 5% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     97    43.00   2071    2380   39116   3714     83.8    1.045
Data for burning rate decreased by 5% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     97    43.00   1945    2100   33871   3411     75.8    1.108
 
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