.450 vs .455 question

mrclean89

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Morning everyone, I have a belgian .450 adams revolver. I make the ammo out of shortened .455 webley brass for trimmed and shortened .45 colt. Then I load them with 15 grains of FFG and .452 diameter lead bullets. Using regualr .45 dies.

I was wondering if you could safely fire .450 adams out of a .455 gun. I would like to get another belgian pistol in the future to more or less match this one. Seems to be harder to find them in .450 than .455 though.

.450 adams is :
Bullet*diameter .455*in (11.6*mm)
Neck*diameter .475*in (12.1*mm)
Base*diameter .477*in (12.1*mm)
Rim*diameter .510*in (13.0*mm)
Case*length .69*in (18*mm)
Overall*length 1.10*in (28*mm)

.455 webley is:
Straight rimmed
Bullet*diameter .454*in (11.5*mm)
Neck*diameter .476*in (12.1*mm)
Base*diameter .480*in (12.2*mm)
Rim*diameter .535*in (13.6*mm)
Case*length .770*in (19.6*mm)
Overall*length 1.230*in (31.2*mm)


Cheers, Mclean
 
One other excellent "primer" site I've found, regarding Webley ammo....:yingyang:

Webley Ammunition

The various Webley revolvers began by using large-caliber slow-moving bullets in a stubby case propelled by black powder (later smokeless powder). The RIC and Bulldog models were offered in an assortment of similar calibers: .442 Webley, .450 Adams, .455 Webley and .476 Enfield. (The .450 Adams, .455 Webley and .476 Enfield cartridges all featured a case diameter of .476 inch.) Some of the cartridges are allegedly interchangeable to some degree.

.442 Webley
The .442 Webley (also known as the .442 Revolver Center Fire in Great Britain, the 10.5x17mmR or .442 Kurz in Europe, and .44 Webley or .442 R.I.C. in the United States) is a British centerfire revolver cartridge.

Introduced in 1868, the .442 (11.2mm) Webley round was used in the Webley & Scott RIC revolver. This was the standard service weapon of the Royal Irish Constabulary. A black powder round, the .442 originally used a 15-19 gr (0.972-1.23 g) charge behind a 200-220 gr (13-14.3 g) bullet. This loading was later joined by a smokeless variety.

At one time, the .442 Webley was a popular chambering in self-defense or “pocket” guns (so named for being designed to be carried in a pocket, what today might be a known as a snubnose or carry gun), such as the widely copied Webley British Bulldog pocket revolver. (The .442 Webley should not be confused with the short, low-powered .44 Bulldog round offered in American copies of the Bulldog.) In addition, at least one Harrington & Richardson revolver model was chambered for the cartridge, as well.

The cartridge was intended purely for self-defense, being roughly similar in power to the contemporary .38 S&W, .41 Colt, or .44 S&W American, and somewhat less potent than the later 7.65mm Parabellum, .38 Special or .45 ACP. As a consequence, it is not really suitable at anything but close range.

Smokeless .442 Webley loads continued to be commercially offered in the U.S. until 1940 and in the United Kingdom and Europe until the 1950s.

Bullet diameter: .436 in (11.1 mm)
Neck diameter: .470 in (11.9 mm)
Base diameter: .442 in (11.2 mm)
Rim diameter: .503 in (12.8 mm)
Case length: .69 in (18 mm)
Overall length: 1.10 in (28 mm)
Primer type: large Berdan

Ballistic performance
Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
200 gr (Kynoch ball, factory load) 700 ft/s 239 ft·lb
200 gr (Remington factory load) 715 ft/s 230 ft·lb

.455 Webley
The .455 cartridge was a service revolver cartridge, featuring a rimmed cartridge firing a .45 bullet at the relatively low velocity of 650 ft/s (190 m/s). The result was a cartridge and handgun combination with relatively mild recoil, with good penetration and excellent stopping power. It was rated superior to the .45 Colt in stopping power in the disputed United States Thompson-LaGarde Tests of 1904 that resulted in the adoption by the U.S. of the .45 ACP cartridge.

The .455 Webley cartridge remained in service with British and Commonwealth forces until the end of the Second World War. Six main types of .455 revolver ammunition were produced:
.455 Webley Mk I: 265 grain solid lead round-nosed bullet propelled by black powder, dating from the late 19th Century. All subsequent .455 designs used cordite propellant.
.455 Webley Mk II: 265 grain solid lead round-nosed bullet propelled by 6.5 gr (0.42 g) cordite. There are minor differences between the Mk I and II bullet shape, though these concern the internal dimensions and so are not immediately apparent.
.455 Webley Mk III: the famous “Manstopper” bullet intended for police, civilian and colonial use. Essentially, the Mk III was a 218 grain lead “hollowpoint” design, propelled by cordite. The cylindrical bullet had hemispherical hollows at each end—one to seal the barrel, the other to deform on impact. This bullet was soon prohibited for use by the military because it was not compliant with the Hague Convention of 1899.
.455 Webley Mk IV: 220 grain, flat-nosed wadcutter with cordite propellant.
.455 Webley Mk V: identical to the Mk IV bullet, but cast from a harder lead-alloy containing more antimony with cordite propellant.
.455 Webley Mk VI: a 265 grain full metal jacketed bullet intended for military purposes, designed to comply with the Hague Convention. This bullet was used during the Great War and the Second World War. The propellant was 5.5–7.5 gr cordite or 5.5 gr nitrocellulose.

In addition to the Webley revolvers, the British and Canadian armies also ordered several thousand Smith & Wesson .44 Hand Ejector revolvers, chambered in .455 Webley, in a rush to equip their troops for the Great War. The urgency was such that the earliest of these were converted from revolvers already completed and chambered for .44 Special. Approximately 60,000 Colt New Service revolvers were also purchased, in .455.

The Italian firm Fiocchi is currently the only commercial manufacturer of the .455 Webley cartridge (in Mk II). The American firm Hornady produces equipment for reloading .455 Webley cartridges.

Case type: Straight, rimmed
Bullet diameter: .454 in (11.5 mm)
Neck diameter: .476 in (12.1 mm)
Base diameter: .480 in (12.2 mm)
Rim diameter: .535 in (13.6 mm)
Case length: .770 in (19.6 mm)
Overall length: 1.230 in (31.2 mm)
Primer type: Large pistol

Ballistic performance
Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
265 gr FMJ 700 ft/s 289 ft·lb
265 gr 600 ft/s 212 ft·lb
265 gr 757 ft/s 337 ft·lb
265 gr 600 ft/s 220 ft·lb

Despite the apparent difference in caliber name, the .476 Enfield was quite similar to the .455 Webley. The .476 had a 0.05 mm (0.002 in) shorter case than the .455 Mark I and could be fired in weapons regulated and marked as safe for the caliber, such as the Webley ‘WG Army’ model. This had a cylinder that was long enough to accommodate the significantly longer cartridge in which the bullet swelled out to .476″ beyond the case. It would not chamber in any government-issue .455 Webley Marks I-VI. The .450 Adams (1868), .476 Enfield (1881), and .455 Webley (1887) British service cartridges all featured a case diameter of .476 inch.

.476 Enfield
The .476 Enfield (also known as the .476 Eley, .476 Revolver, and occasionally .455/476) is a British centrefire black powder revolver cartridge.

Used in the Enfield Mk II revolver, the Mk III variant was introduced in 1881 for the British Army, supplanting the earlier .476 Enfield Marks I and II cartridges, which in turn had replaced the .450 Adams cartridges, all of which also used black powder propellant.

The .476 Enfield cartridge was only in British service for a comparatively short while before it was itself replaced in service by the black powder-loaded .455 Webley Mark I in 1887 and then by the smokeless powder-loaded .455 Webley Mark IV in September 1894. Just over 1,000 Enfield Mark IIs were issued to the North-West Mounted Police, which remained in use until 1911, when the last Enfields were phased out in favour of more modern (and reliable) .45 Colt New Service revolvers.

Using the same bullet as the .455 (11.6mm) Webley Mark I, the .476 casing was 0.05 mm (0.002 in) longer and carried a charge of 18 gr of black powder, compared to 6.5 gr of cordite in the .455 Mark I.

While the .476 Enfield cartridge can be used in any British-manufactured .455 Webley calibre service revolver, there are issues with the later-production Colt or Smith & Wesson .455 Revolver models, which are liable to have slightly smaller bore diameters.

Despite the difference in designation, the .476 will readily interchange with the earlier .450 Adams and .455 Webley rounds (the latter in black powder Mark 1 and smokeless Marks I through VI), as well as the .455 Colt (a U.S. commercial brand for the same .455 Webley round, with slightly different ballistics), which all use the same .455 in (11.6mm) bullet, the distinction being which diameter was measured. Officially, .450 Adams, .476 Enfield, and .455 Webley cartridges all could be fired in the Webley Mark III British Government Model revolver; although case length, bullet weight and shape, and powder charge differed, all three cartridges featured a case diameter of .476 inch with a bullet diameter of .455 inch, which could be fired in a barrel of .450 inch bore.

The Enfield name derives from the location of the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield Lock, the armoury where British Military Small Arms were produced (in this case, the Enfield revolver the cartridge was best known for being used in), while Eley was a British commercial brand.

Bullet diameter: .455 in (11.6 mm)
Neck diameter: .474 in (12.0 mm)
Base diameter: .478 in (12.1 mm)
Rim diameter: .530 in (13.5 mm)
Case length: 0.87 in (22 mm)
Overall length: 1.33 in (34 mm)
Primer type: Berdan
 
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