458 SOCOM, an interesting caliber, similar ballistics to the 45-70

[cody c]

As many of us do I was just browsing different calibers and have skipped over the 458 socom a few times but dismissed it asseems to be one of the new tacti-cool rounds that seems to fall in the military caliber groups that seem less applied to hunting (i.e. .223 or 338 lapua($) etc).

Anyways, it seems the caliber is getting more popular with our southern neighbors, they use it in AR platforms for pig hunting, and it is quite versatile as it can be loaded with really heavy or really light rounds. It was designed to be able to shoot subsonic 600 grain rounds so the navy seals could have a supressed round, and its built to fit in AR mags.


Why do I bring this round up? I havent heard much about it, and the pro's are: use AR mags for ammo similar to 45-70, eventually the availibilty and cost may be good as the military will be using it. Short rounds=short actions, it may be comparably affordable for a round that shoots a .458 bullet for shooting paper?, maybe even a moose gun with the right loading. For a fat projectile like the .458, it should get up to speed relatively quick, so it should do well in a short action, short barrel rifle. And I don't know a single person jumping aboard the .458 socom wagon, so in a way it does have an appeal for being different to what almost every other hunter is using in canada for a hunting rifle (different).

Its also interesting that the 45-70 was a popular caliber at one time for the military then hunting buffalo, then got dull as opposed to the 30-06 and then all the magnum calibers spawned from that, but now the military has gone back to something in similar capacity, and then it grows popular with pig hunters in the southern states.


Anyways, your thoughts?

 

[bcsteve]

Ballistic similar to an anemic .45-70, military are not using it (exept for maybe some top secret ops), brass hard to find and its a proprietary cartridge with only a couple companies under licence to make/ use dealers and barrels.

 

[cody c]

Ballistic similar to an anemic .45-70, military are not using it (exept for maybe some top secret ops), brass hard to find and its a proprietary cartridge with only a couple companies under licence to make/ use dealers and barrels.

Ballistics are a bit less then the 45-70, but it never seemed to small for large game. Garret cartridges seems to have some incredible reviews from african hunts with 500 grain projectiles in the 45-70, worth reading.

I wasnt sure about brass, it seems that may be the deal breaker. But there is a handfull of rifles that take AR mags, I think some howa's and a new mossberg bolt action will take the AR mags if I'm not mistaken. It could be an interesting option/conversion, something similar to the ruger scout but in a heavier bullet.

It may not be worth the effort, but I was curious to hear more about it.

EDIT: Midway sells 100 brass for $77, they also sell dies.

 

[Gatehouse]

Saw a video of them tipping over a buffalo with it. My guess is that it will kill stuff!

 

[sunray]

"...as the military will be using it..." Nope. It's another one of those cartidges that answers an unasked question. I suppose if you wanted a pricey way of using an AR type rifle for big beasties it'd do. Mind you, it wouldn't be allowed in most African countries.
"...Midway sells... No exporting by Midway. They got caught doing so several years back and got smacked by the U.S. Commerce Dept. Might have been State though.

 

[cody c]

"...as the military will be using it..." Nope. It's another one of those cartidges that answers an unasked question. I suppose if you wanted a pricey way of using an AR type rifle for big beasties it'd do. Mind you, it wouldn't be allowed in most African countries.
"...Midway sells... No exporting by Midway. They got caught doing so several years back and got smacked by the U.S. Commerce Dept. Might have been State though.

Here you guys go, inserting practicality and logic into the brainstorming of eccentrics and tinkerers again.

I'm not interested in using an AR, I am interested in the large capacity ATI magazine conversions for howa's/vanguards, and if someone could build a 18-20" barreled short action rifle on say a mauser or savage or howa then why not?

Is it answering an unasked question... Sure. Does that mean some of us cant re-invent the wheel every few months though? I hope not.

Can we not import anything at all from the states? The 458S is being well used down south, and with companies like white falls hunting supplies or prophet river that say they can/will import the things we have difficulty bringing up. If you want to bet money that it is impossible to legally get 458S in the country let me know.

I don't purchase a rifle simply on the basis of wether or not i will be able to hunt in Africa with it one day, though I bet you are correct, but can you hunt african big game with a 30-06, 308, 358, 7mm etc etc? The point of bringing up the caliber was that its does have some pro's and cons, and some folks here are interested in trying out new calibers and playing with loads first hand.

Do I need a 458S or plan on building one, nope, I need a rifle like this like I need a hole in the head, I just think its an interesting caliber.Besides my 45-70 short barreled enfield should be ready in a week or two.

EDIT: not sure about white falls, but I see Jerry at Mystic says on his website that he has it.

DOUBLE EDIT: part of the reason the 458S is intriguing is that it uses the same bolt face as the 308 win, and is rimmed rather then belted, so actions that are easier to re-work with a rimmed cartridge vs. belted may be able to accept a 458S where they wouldnt work as easily for a 45-70.

 

[bcsteve]

I was actually looking at the .458 SOCOM in a bolt action for a while but I abandoned the project for the reasons I stated. To satisfy my big bore bolt action desire and having something different, I'm building a .458x2". Hot .45-70 ballistic in a short barrel bolt action. Brass easily made from any standard belted magnum case. Hopefully it will be ready for this season.

 

[BigUglyMan]

Yeah, if I was doing a short action .458" bolt gun I would be going with the 458x2" or a 450 Marlin. Maybe a 458 Alpine (WSM) if I wanted to turn a M70 into a lightweight big bore rifle that duplicated (or came close) to 458 WM performance.

 

[Gibbs505]

Sounds similar to the 458 X 1 1/2" used as an experimental cartridge in Veitnam.

 

[Boomer]

Sounds similar to the 458 X 1 1/2" used as an experimental cartridge in Veitnam.

IIRC, the US military even tried sub sonic .458 Winchester rounds in suppressed M-70s. Is a 500 gr bullet fired from a rifle at the same velocity as a 250 gr .45 colt fired from a revolver a better performer on big game? Slightly perhaps, but the .45/70, .458 American, to say nothing of the .458 Winchester and the full length .458 Lott are all better answers to the big game cartridge question. The reason the Socom round is gaining popular is because of the rapid repeat shots that can be made with AR based rifles on multiple targets while attempting to control the feral pig problem, sometimes from a helicopter. This has little to do with big game hunting.

 

[cody c]

That makes sense boomer, I would not say the .458 socom is destined to fill the role of a big game gun. But they are also shooting 250 grain projectiles at around 2000 fps, and maybe that has some applications as well.

Comparing the 458S to the rest of the 458 winchesters lots etc. and it does look tiny, Id say it doesn't have any competition with those rifles, they are true big game guns.

It doesn't make sense though to use the 458 win for trying to shoot 4 or 5 pigs in under 2 seconds in thick brush though either, and I guess that where its appeal is.

They don't really make sense for running through alaskan bush, but I guess they make alot of sense for hunting feral pigs in the states. And to be honest, chances are probably better for me that I'd do a trip to hunt pigs in the states on a friends property then spend the money to go to africa on a safari. Im actually not sure why more of us canucks aren't doing that on the weekends. From Calgary I know someone who drives into montana and then flies to vegas with his family for the weekend for what he says costs less then himself alone flying directly from Calgary. Probably best saved for another thread, but it makes sense for those wanting to do some hunting any time of the year, I bet there's some farmers who would appreciate it.

Edit: I wont be using my 45-70 enfield for this season I dont think. I still need to get a front site for it (NECG) and I want to change the shape of the front end of the stock a bit, too many people telling me it looks phallic. Its at a smith in calgary getting blued and getting it to feed and extract properly.