458 Wisper sub sonic big bores
- Thread starter DEZ
- Start date
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
What do you want to do with this set up?
there are many many options.
Jerry
there are many many options.
Jerry
I was thinking the 458 socom on a rem action I like big bore rifles but get tired of getting pounded by my 500 jefferies I was hoping it would use less powder and have less recoil than a 45-70 etc. for all day fun target shooting and plinking just for something different. I thought 458 socom because I hear starline makes brass and dies are available from CH-4D
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
There are several shorterned 458WM wildcats. One is like 1.5" long and headspaces off the belt.
The 45-70 can be downloaded ALOT and makes the ideal plinker with no case handling hassles.
Jerry
The 45-70 can be downloaded ALOT and makes the ideal plinker with no case handling hassles.
Jerry
A 45-70 Gov't is not ging to be doable on the poster's desire to use a Rem 700. Given those contraints a .338 Whisper would be a fairly logical choice.
A 45-70 Gov't on a good Enfield action sounds very interesting though.
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
If the rimmed case will not work, then just go with a 458WM (easiest to make and find stuff for) and use some cast bullet loads. There are plenty that would be subsonic capable.
16 twist. 300 to 525gr pointed or RN cast bullets and enjoy.
35 and 40cal are also wonderful cast bullet choices.
Jerry
16 twist. 300 to 525gr pointed or RN cast bullets and enjoy.
35 and 40cal are also wonderful cast bullet choices.
Jerry
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Dez if you want a 458 wildcat repeater, bolt action that you can EASILY and Cheeply get brass for (unlike SOCOM) 458 American x 2 inch, and this is hard to beat.
Any magnum H&H based case can be modified to 458 American dimensions, by either simply cutting down 458 Win Mag from its full size, 2.5 inch to exactly 2 inch, length of empty case. Or going the slightly better route and purchase from RCBS case forming dies so you can easily convert 7 Rem Mag, 300 Win Mag, 338 Win Mag to 458 American. (case inside reaming tool)
This can be loaded in the range of velocities you desire, just as Mysticplayer said (45-70 ish), plus it can be had in a Remington 700, or K98 Mauser or 110 Savage etc etc etc....as a dependable repeater.
(with good custom 'smithing for barrel fitting & for magazine well)
Just think of all those nice 45-70 cast bullet moulds awaiting your use. And as previously stated 1 in 16 rate of twist is perfect for this bore.
This is a great option for you I think.
The only reason to go this SOCOM route is if you desire a 458 Socom AR-15 which is restricted,
(of course) which would be fun at the range but, so this leaves hunting out of the picture in Canada.
Any magnum H&H based case can be modified to 458 American dimensions, by either simply cutting down 458 Win Mag from its full size, 2.5 inch to exactly 2 inch, length of empty case. Or going the slightly better route and purchase from RCBS case forming dies so you can easily convert 7 Rem Mag, 300 Win Mag, 338 Win Mag to 458 American. (case inside reaming tool)
This can be loaded in the range of velocities you desire, just as Mysticplayer said (45-70 ish), plus it can be had in a Remington 700, or K98 Mauser or 110 Savage etc etc etc....as a dependable repeater.
(with good custom 'smithing for barrel fitting & for magazine well)
Just think of all those nice 45-70 cast bullet moulds awaiting your use. And as previously stated 1 in 16 rate of twist is perfect for this bore.
This is a great option for you I think.
The only reason to go this SOCOM route is if you desire a 458 Socom AR-15 which is restricted,
(of course) which would be fun at the range but, so this leaves hunting out of the picture in Canada.
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I have spent a lot of time working on low velocity/quiet 45-70 loads.
With a 22" stainless steel barreled T/C Contender carbine I was able to with 2.0grs Titegroup powder held lightly in place with styrofoam get down to an average of 300fps with Bullet Barn cast 450gr bullets.
This load was almost totally silent in this rifle due to the powder being totally burnt by the time the bullet exited the barrel, the hammer stiking was louder than the shot...
I was able to consistantly shoot 1" groups @ 25 yards using iron sights as well as the bullet would penetrate the 1 1/2" width of a 2 X 4 at this same distance.
If your interested in trying this obviously start with more powder I started with 8grs Titegroup and worked down until the bullet got stuck in the barrel and other fast powders may even work better.
I used a hard cast bullet but a softer lead bullet would work better another thing I do is I insert the bullet into the case backwards which if you think of what a water drop looks like the bullet flying backwards is possibly a better aerodynamic shape for low velocities resulting in the loaded bullets look like wadcutter, the extremely wide meplat of the base of the bullet is also a plus.
This was great fun to experiment with, one other thought in colder weather eg -20/-25 degree temps the bullets would not exit the barrel so use extreme caution when playing around with reduced loads in colder weather...
With a 22" stainless steel barreled T/C Contender carbine I was able to with 2.0grs Titegroup powder held lightly in place with styrofoam get down to an average of 300fps with Bullet Barn cast 450gr bullets.
This load was almost totally silent in this rifle due to the powder being totally burnt by the time the bullet exited the barrel, the hammer stiking was louder than the shot...
I was able to consistantly shoot 1" groups @ 25 yards using iron sights as well as the bullet would penetrate the 1 1/2" width of a 2 X 4 at this same distance.
If your interested in trying this obviously start with more powder I started with 8grs Titegroup and worked down until the bullet got stuck in the barrel and other fast powders may even work better.
I used a hard cast bullet but a softer lead bullet would work better another thing I do is I insert the bullet into the case backwards which if you think of what a water drop looks like the bullet flying backwards is possibly a better aerodynamic shape for low velocities resulting in the loaded bullets look like wadcutter, the extremely wide meplat of the base of the bullet is also a plus.
This was great fun to experiment with, one other thought in colder weather eg -20/-25 degree temps the bullets would not exit the barrel so use extreme caution when playing around with reduced loads in colder weather...
There are both positive and negative aspects to doing this. The base forward bullet is actually better for terminal ballistics as the wide flat surface and sharp edges will cut and crush more tissue than a pointed bullet.
However the pointed "rear end" is actually much worse for accuracy. That is why benchrest shooters use flat based bullets rather than boat tails.
I have no experience with the larger Whispers, but I am playing around with a .300 Whisper, subsonic velocities and heavy cast bullets. I think it is worth trying the Whisper approach, although i haven't proved/disproved the minimal velocity loss from the muzzle out to 200yds, I'll have to wait for better weather.
Suputin... Your correct but for these short distances the bullets stabilize better when loaded backwards resulting in better accuracy and that large meplat smacking a 2X4 and popping a hole thru it at 25 yards is awesome especially when noise of the hammer hitting the firing pin is louder than the shot...
I have done BC calculations on .30 cal subsonics and they have a MUCH higher BC than what is published for supersonic velocities. It actually makes sense as the air resistance at lower velocity should be lower.
If you are seeing a difference in stability then I would suggest the backwards bullet is only marginally stable anyway and you should try a shorter or stumpier bullet for better stabilization.
One thing I discovered with subsonics is their flight stability can decay with distance (opposite of supersonics). So you could do all sorts of work developing a bullet at 25 yds only to find it is completely unstable at 100 yds. I recommend developing a load at the max distance you plan to shoot it. Then it will be stable and accurate at anything short of that.
