6.5 pencil barrel unusual results

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Metalocalypse902

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Alright so I'm loading for a #2 barrel weatherby v2 badlands in 6.5 creedmoor. I'm shooting 143gr eldx. Cci primers, hornady and winchester brass, and using superformance powder. I've got a load developed for the most part but I'm getting some interesting results that I don't encounter with any of my bull barrels. I go the the range, set up to 100yards, shoot a 3 shot group.. the barrel being thin I give it 10 minutes between rounds and the first group is 5/8" fantastic. Second opens up to about 1 1/8" and the 3rd group is around 2". And I come back two separate time with the identical load and always the same first three down range give me a consistent 5/8"-3/4". Then the second opens just over an inch. Then the third opens right up.. and I just do not understand what's going on. And to clarify I'm shooting 1 round every 10 minutes. Not 3 then 10 mins.
 
OP, the #2 barrel contour isn't considered to be a "pencil barrel" It's actually quite normal.

I can understand you wanting to see how your barrel shoots at ''ambient'' temperatures, so you know what to expect for "first shot" placement on game in the field, but it isn't necessary at the range.

Most barrels haven't been properly conditioned by the manufacturers to keep them from changing harmonics as they heat up. So more than 3-5 quick shots is about the limit for most barrels before POI starts to change, even if they're properly bedded.

For those lucky enough to have properly conditioned barrels on a first rifle or even more, don't really understand, what's happening with your groups.

For those of us that don't have such fantastic barrels, after five shots, especially with light weight contours, allowing the barrels to cool to ambient temps is a good practice and eliminates a lot of grief and waste of now very expensive components.

As for your groups opening up after the initial group, there could be several factors involved.

As mentioned, bedding or improperly torqued action screws, or both.

I would first check the torque on your action screws and if that doesn't help check the bedding, if there is any.

Many of the newer stocks have alumuinum bedding blocks that are excellent, right from the factory. Some folks will skim coat them, but in most cases, it doesn't help much if any.
 
I have a Sako Finnlight in .270 Win, it its factory synthetic stock, not bedded. The barrel is quite light. I don't know what official contour it might be, but it heats up fast, and then the normally tight groups start stringing, with the common stringing pattern up and to the right.

On hot days when shooting many rounds at the bench with this and all my centerfire rifles, I use a battery powered barrel cooler blower that inserts into the chamber. The barrel still stays hot but I like to think it makes a difference in reducing wait times.

Another trick I use is a USB fan (powered with external rechargeable Li-ion battery pack) on the bench directed at the barrel. It moves alot of air that will help cool the barrel faster than ambient conditions when the wind is low.
 
Are you planning on killing something with the first 3 shots? Or the 9th one?. Or just pizzing components on a piece of paper.
 
Metalocalypse902 said:
Alright so I'm loading for a #2 barrel weatherby v2 badlands in 6.5 creedmoor. I'm shooting 143gr eldx. Cci primers, hornady and winchester brass, and using superformance powder. I've got a load developed for the most part but I'm getting some interesting results that I don't encounter with any of my bull barrels. I go the the range, set up to 100yards, shoot a 3 shot group.. the barrel being thin I give it 10 minutes between rounds and the first group is 5/8" fantastic. Second opens up to about 1 1/8" and the 3rd group is around 2". And I come back two separate time with the identical load and always the same first three down range give me a consistent 5/8"-3/4". Then the second opens just over an inch. Then the third opens right up.. and I just do not understand what's going on. And to clarify I'm shooting 1 round every 10 minutes. Not 3 then 10 mins.[/QUOTE

Not uncommon. That barrel still has NOT ever Kooled to when you started shooting ! Shoot it hours later and it will prob group 5/8 “ again . JMO RJ
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Metalocalypse902 said:
Alright so I'm loading for a #2 barrel weatherby v2 badlands in 6.5 creedmoor. I'm shooting 143gr eldx. Cci primers, hornady and winchester brass, and using superformance powder. I've got a load developed for the most part but I'm getting some interesting results that I don't encounter with any of my bull barrels. I go the the range, set up to 100yards, shoot a 3 shot group.. the barrel being thin I give it 10 minutes between rounds and the first group is 5/8" fantastic. Second opens up to about 1 1/8" and the 3rd group is around 2". And I come back two separate time with the identical load and always the same first three down range give me a consistent 5/8"-3/4". Then the second opens just over an inch. Then the third opens right up.. and I just do not understand what's going on. And to clarify I'm shooting 1 round every 10 minutes. Not 3 then 10 mins.
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35 years ago I had a Mini 14 in .223 that shot the same way, except it would open up to 12" as it heated up. I took a loss and sent it down the road. What a POS.
 
Meroh said:
35 years ago I had a Mini 14 in .223 that shot the same way, except it would open up to 12" as it heated up. I took a loss and sent it down the road. What a POS.
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That was likely very much due to the crappy barrels Ruger was getting from a jobber back then.

When they started making their own barrels, things got much better
 
When groups open up there are a number of factors to consider.
Since you are letting the barrel cool between shots, I don't think it's heat...
Did you just shoot?
Or did you break in the barrel? (Cleaning for powder and copper fouling between every shot for first 20, then every 3 rounds for 20, and then every 10 rounds, until you have 100 rounds through it; or as otherwise recommended by the manufacturer?)
Some barrels foul quicker than others and this will also cause groups to open up. Other barrels just take longer to settle in.
In your groups, did the groups open up larger, or by stringing as suggested above?
And if they are stringing, was it vertically or horizontally, as each indicates a different issue with the rifle (horizontal is a barrel bedding issue, whereas vertically indicates an action screw torque issue), again this usually comes from heat from quicker shot strings...
Did you chronograph your loads to verify that your ES and SD numbers are fairly consistent?
You did not mention other handloading practices, such as trimming cases, weighing each charge individually to mitigate load variation, sorting cases and/or bullets by weight, checking coal, checking runout, etc. as these can cause variation...but since your groups are fairly consistent in size with each outing, and the subsequent groups, I would imagine that may not be the issue for you.

Just my first thoughts to ponder and review as you search for your answers...
Hope you get it figured.
 
Meroh said:
From what I have seen from later guns, the improvement was minimal.
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Ruger bolt actions aren't my preferred choice.

However, they have acceptable accuracy for hunting purposes out past 300yds with most factory ammo.

With a lot of work, they can be made into tack drivrs.

People today are spoiled by the CNC manufactured commercial sporter rifles being turned out. That is, as long as the CNC equipment is kept in good condition and not run into the ground before being repaired or replaced as needed. Ruger has a bad habit of doing this IMHO

I've had and still do have a couple of No 1 rifles. One is chambered for 338-06 and shoots very well.

The other is chambered for the 270 Win and I couldn't get that thing to shoot until I replaced the original scope base/rings with an aftermarket Picatinny style rail and epoxied it in place. Now it's very accurate but it's slated to go up for sale at the next gunshow this fall.

The only bolt action Ruger I have is an M77R, chambered for the 22 Hornet. Its main weakness is the "plastic" rotary magazine.

Luckily a CGNer sold me a NIB spare he had on hand.

The M77R I have will maintain minute of bunny head out to 200 yds if I do my part. Loves 40 grain flat base bullets, loaded to 2800fps with 12.5 grains of Lil Gun over magnum primers.
 
The #2 Contour Barrel is the standard Contour on the Vanguard. It's far from what most people would consider a pencil barrel. These rifles are not free floated from the factory which is likely what is causing the issue that you are seeing with the groups open up. The stock applies pressure to the barrel all along the forend on the sides and under the barrel at the tip of the forend. As the barrel heats up and applies pressure to where the stock comes into contact it will affect your accuracy and group sizes. Unless you let the rifle sit for a long time to completely cool down to the same temperature as the first group you shot you will likely continue to see this pattern with the barrel that is not free floated. I dropped most of my vanguards into a Boyd stock fully free floated and stopped having similar issues.
 
fade2black said:
The #2 Contour Barrel is the standard Contour on the Vanguard. It's far from what most people would consider a pencil barrel. These rifles are not free floated from the factory which is likely what is causing the issue that you are seeing with the groups open up. The stock applies pressure to the barrel all along the forend on the sides and under the barrel at the tip of the forend. As the barrel heats up and applies pressure to where the stock comes into contact it will affect your accuracy and group sizes. Unless you let the rifle sit for a long time to completely cool down to the same temperature as the first group you shot you will likely continue to see this pattern with the barrel that is not free floated. I dropped most of my vanguards into a Boyd stock fully free floated and stopped having similar issues.
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I've yet to see a Vanguard that I would consider to be a "very accurate" shooter.

That being said, they are ''acceptably" accurate for most hunting conditions out to 250-300 meters.

There have been long drawn out discussions on this by some very knowledgeable shooters on this site.

One went to some very extreme measures to get his rifle to shoot to his personal standard of accuracy. I believe he sold that rifle at a loss.
 
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