6.5x55 Swede - Possible Issues?

Redhouse

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So, I wasn't sure whether to put this in gunsmithing, or milsurp, or here, so I'll try here first.

I acquired an M96/38 on the weekend and shot it for the first time today. I'll start with the condition of the gun - the stock disk indicates that, even when it was re-armoured, it was somewhat shot out. Bore is indicated at 6.54 (brand new factory should be 6.50) and #3 accuracy rating (it's either 1, 2 or 3 from best to worst). When I cleaned it, I never did get it completely clean (30ish patches of solvent and carbon cleaner, with some scrubbing thrown in).....it's been well used, as indicated by other very general observation, and so could be bored out even worse than when it was re-armoured. But it locks up well and the internals look as crisp as you would want, for a 1909 action. Lots of rifling left, for example.

So, I didn't have any strong accuracy expectations, and didn't think I would see pressure signs as I loaded to minimum average from 2 books I have. Chrony indicates that it's not making the expected speed even extrapolating downwards for the slightly shorter 24.5" carbine barrel. Using RL22, 43.5gr was 2175fps and 44.5 was just over 2200fps with 139gr Scenars. Just more indication, to me, of a 'loose' bore. They stabilized fine and, once I learned the iron sights, shot where I pointed.

My concern is twofold, likely related.

1. backing out primers. I shot 7 rounds, 4 of them showed significant travel of the primer. This is in brand new first time being shot Win brass. 4th one from left is obviously unfired.
65x55Primers.jpg


2. significant blowby. First couple had no issue, but I was a little surprised to see the rim groove almost totally full of carbon on the 3rd shot (with the lighter load) - it's the one furthest right in the pic. Shot a couple of the heavier load just to get a speed indication, first came out clean but the second was covered with carbon head to toe - kinda hard to see in the fuzzy cam pic, but it's the case in the center.
65x55Brass.jpg


So what do I have? Loose chamber? Load em hotter so the cartridge doesn't rattle around in there? :eek: Headspace way out of whack? Danger Will Robinson?

As an aside, I had read how pleasant these are to shoot but it far exceeded my expectations! Even with that steel butt plate, just a pussycat to shoot, hardly any recoil at all!
 
My opinion is that you should not be shooting that rifle at all, you should send it to me right away, as I have two spare pristine barrels...
 
The combination of backed out primers and blow by, combined with low velocity, makes me think low pressure is the issue.
 
Are you sure about the chrony....sounds like you would have to stuff a lot more Rl-22 in there to get to at least 2500 fps. With a lot of soot on the brass and backed out primers I would say the loads are light and cartridge and not creating a seal with the chamber.

Are the cases stretching alot ? that would also tell you something about the chamber if worried about headspace.
 
When the primer is backed out of the case, pressure is almost certainly low, and soot on the case means that there was insufficient pressure to seal the neck to the chamber wall.

If the throat is badly eroded, significant bullet jump to the lands could also reduce pressure. I would make up a dummy cartridge with a long, flat base bullet seated backwards in the case and gently chamber that round to get an idea of how long your lead is. You might find that long, heavy, round nose bullets produce the best accuracy once you've worked up a load.
 
You should not be using reduced loads with a slow burning powder.

Understand that I'm not dismissing what you say out of hand, I get it. But have a look at this http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/recipedetail.aspx?gtypeid=2&weight=140&shellid=58&bulletid=116, where 40 gr of RL22 yields 2400+ fps. I was at 44.5gr and just breaking 2200fps. So I wasn't exactly shooting a reduced load...I took bottom end loads from Lyman, Speer and Hornady and took my best guess from there.

I'm more certain it's a rifle issue....probably not worth spending any $ on, but I might get it looked at. Certainly will if I intend to shoot it again, I'll put it at the back of the safe for now.
 
Well - You're a reloader! You can partially size the cases to match the chamber dimensions (and get better accuracy/case life to boot)! I'd be very surprised if you have a headspace issue - the Swedes were fastidious about their rifles - a number 3 bore condition is still pretty good. I still contend you have issues caused by low pressure - the blowby carbon is the telling indicator.
 
Headspace is good, no-go guage doesn't come anywhere near bolt closing.

Faster powder, and more of it, here I come :p

Why Faster powder ? Nothing wrong with RL-22....I would just keep working up.

The swede I had shot very well with 46.5 gr. of RL-22 behind Sierra GK 's and Nosler partitions. (remington brass)
 
The Swedes I've loaded all did their best with pressures up near max.
R22 is my go to powder, 47 - 48 grains carefully worked up to, with 142 smk or 139 scenar or 140 amax seated out to 3.150".
Even brand new swede bores tend to measure .265 - .266" ,so it seems that enough pressure to consistently 'slug up' the .264" bullet is what you are looking for. The hottest 6.5/55 loads I've ever shot are Norma factory, too hot for my likings.
2650 fps with 140's and R22 is where many swedes seem to find the sweet spot.
The one and only time I've had problems with pressure spiking unexpectedly was a 1900 Oberndorf with a huge 'carbon ring'. Stiff bolt lift ,with starting loads. Once scrubbed out it shot well, and much less pressure after with 5 grains more powder in the case.
I do not need any more of that.
Now every new to me rifle gets its bore slugged before the loading commences.
The winchester brass is measurably smaller and shorter to the shoulder than Euro cases. On first firing primers either back out with a soft load,or,flatten with a stiff one. On second firing ,with only partial sizing, things return to normal.
You did well by starting low. The charges mentioned above could be too much for some older m94 actions. 47 r22 may well have fragged that 'pressure ring' oberndorf ,had I become complacent and started off with what worked well in all those many other swedes.
 
I had the same issue with loading for my son's m38. It shot the factory ammo just fine, but when I started loading at minimum book levels I was getting velocities below 2000 fps and the chamber wasn't sealing, resulting in gas discharging and blackened cases.

I had a friend check headspace for me and then proceeded to go up in charge.


My end loads were 48 gr of RL22 with 140 gr core lokts and 41 gr of imr 4064 with 120 gr sierra bullets.
 
Loads in the manuals are very conservative for the most part for the 6.5X55.
The conditions you describe, and the pics, look to me like low pressure. move up a bit, and the case will expand to seal the chamber, and keep the primer from pushing out as well.
I had the same experience when I first loaded 6.5X55.
Try a factory round for comparison.
 
x2 cosmic. I agree, the pressures are to low, for proper case forming.

An old reloaders trick for excess head space is to neck re size only for susequent hand loads. The amount of headspace, you are measureing, may be to commercial specs, which are much tighter than milspec. That rifle was built to function, under extreme conditions, with absolute reliability, or as close as possible. Generous chambers, are the rule, rather than the exception.
If the bolt is matching, it's pretty easy to tell if the action is stretched or there is any set back on the locking lugs.
Even though it isn't a reccomended method, close the bolt and push it ahead. There should be a little bit of forward movement. If it's really sloppy, get it checked for head space but with milspec guages. As far as set back goes, get a bright light and dental mirror and shine it into the bolt locking recess area. If you see anything other than a smooth straight surface, them the receiver may, have been stressed, with high pressures.
From what I can see of your brass, it looks fine. Just suffers from all of the signs of low pressure. This is quite common when fire forming brass when using wax plugs, etc, rather than bullets. Using bullets, is an expensive and wasteful way to fire form brass.
 
I agree with all those who are blaming low pressure loads for your issues. You should add powder till the problem disappears.....and it will be fine. Eagleye.
 
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