7.62 nato what is it?

Looks like a bent bolt but hard to tell from your picture.......FR7
Spanish Mauser .308
Cool guns worth more then $100
 
Looks like a FR7. They are a handy little rifle, but are not strong enough for a regular 7.62 NATO round as they are built on an older Mauser action. The ctg case is the same as a 7.62 NATO, but the Spanish loaded the ammo to a lower pressure level for use in this rifle. If I were reloading for it, I'd start with a very light load of IMR4895 and watch carefully for pressure signs.
 
It is an FR7

As far as lower pressures go????????? Maybe??????????

I say this because most Nato 7.62x51 is loaded to around 45,000 psi. Right around the top end of the safe limits for the 93 action these were built on.

A few years ago, I managed to pick up a bunch of components from SFRC. He was gracious enough to send along a few hundred loaded CETME rounds. I pulled the bullets in the rounds so that I could weigh the powder charge and have a place to work from when making up duplicate rounds from the components.

I stripped down and weighed the powder in 50 cartridges. Took an average of all of them, which were all within a tenth grain of average, one way or the other. I also weighed the BTSP bullets. 112 grains with a lead base and a plastic nose, all covered with a copper jacket and an exposed base. The diameter is .311 inches and the length is exactly the same as a Sierra BTSP 174 grain, 303 British. I also got access to a visual comparator and their shape is exactly the same. The only difference being the crimp canelure and the apparently rolled lip on the base.

The powder is a ball type of very small grains. About half the size of any other ball powder I've seen. Maybe it's a proprietary powder made especially for the CETME round. Whatever, it is very fast. Not as fast as shotgun or handgun powders but still very quick.

I also poured some kerosene into the cases the components came from to make the primers inert so I could extract them. Most of them were dud anyway but no sense taking a chance.

I have a few thousand proper sized Berdan primers on hand so replacing the primers wasn't a problem. I then reloaded the cases with the same average load and pulled bullets. I didn't want to shoot them in the FR7 because I wasn't sure how accurate it was and I also wasn't sure whether the problem with the cartridges was the powder or the primers. It turned out to be the primers, just like the fellow at SFRC said.

I loaded them up with standard velocity Berdan primers simply because that is all I've ever had.

I shot the first 10 rounds out of a Remington 700 Police Tactical. To say the rounds were accurate would be an understatement. Those 10 rounds all went into less than 2cm at 100m. 8 of them went under 1cm.

Now, that load was stout. Very stout. I wish I had a working chrony at the time but mine was having some issues, now fixed. My standard sight in at 100m for that rifle is 6cm high. That load, printed 8cm high. Maybe it was the lighter bullets??? No muzzle flash at all and no granules of powder on the snow. By the way, the powder load in those cases is slightly compressed. Recoil was similar to that of the 165 grain flat base Speer SPs I normally shoot out of that rifle. They're cheap and it really shoots them well. Maybe the recoil was similar because of the larger diameter bullets??

In all honesty, I didn't expect them to shoot well because of the over diameter for the bore. I think it has a lot to do with the bullet construction. That is interesting in itself. I may have to start doing some swaging, using reverse, open ended bases and solid noses.

It makes sense that the recoil would be substantial. The cartridges also had to work in full auto, blow back rifles so the impetus on the bolt needed to be enough to complete extraction and compress the return spring enough to clear the cartridge in the magazine to reload, first time, every time. By the way, from further study, the CETME semi and full auto rifle were fine with NATO spec ammo. Just needed a gas port adjustment.

I have shot hundreds of rounds of the CETME components through my FR7 without a glitch. Even the standard primers I use in the NATO cases I reload are flattened and spread by the normal powder charge. The FR7 isn't as accurate as the 700 but it is much better than I expected. The sights on the FR7 are excellent, once you get used to them. The bore of the FR7 I have measures .309in. It shoots regular .308 bullets very well. It will shoot the Speer 165 grain SPFB bullets I like into just over 4cm on a regular basis, if I do my part. The load I use in those cases is 40 grains of BLC2 over CCI 250 primers. This load is around 45,000 psi and shoot well in this rifle as well as my 1912 converted Steyr and Israeli converted Mauser.

As mentioned by Purple, I would be reluctant to shoot off the shelf sporting ammunition in this rifle. This stuff is close to 60,000 psi.

Regular NATO offerings might be OK. I've used them in my rifle but you only use them in yours at your own risk.
 
It's a pity we don't have a "Thanks" button; that's some valuable info.Thk

Is it possible the Spanish re-heat-treated these actions?
 
Think these were more of a training rifle than a combat weapon, not the uncanny resemblance of the sighting system and barrel to the G3. ;)

Grizz
 
IMHO, if you reload at under 45,000psi, the rifle should be fine. Lots and lots of people shoot commercial ammo in them at close to 60,000psi and I never hear of grenades FR7's. I would not do that personally though.

FWIW, I would expect an Indian 2A1 to blow up from shooting .308 in it LONG before I'd expect and FR7 to blow, and lots of people foolishly shoot commercial 308 in those too.
 
Just a question to the guys who positively identified the rifle, if it's a bolt action rifle, what is the tube under the barrel? It almost looks like the gas tube on an M14.
 
It held a cleaning kit if I recall. The rifle was built to balance like and somewhat resemble a CETME and was used for training until enough CETME rifles were available for all troops.
 
sharpsway said:
Just a question to the guys who positively identified the rifle, if it's a bolt action rifle, what is the tube under the barrel? It almost looks like the gas tube on an M14.
Click to expand...

There is a little button that holds it all in the front ring. Unscrew the cap, you might find a surprise. (I did that in front of a guy I was buying from, and he kept the kit for his other rifle. :(
 
bearhunter said:
It is an FR7

As far as lower pressures go????????? Maybe??????????

I say this because most Nato 7.62x51 is loaded to around 45,000 psi. Right around the top end of the safe limits for the 93 action these were built on.

A few years ago, I managed to pick up a bunch of components from SFRC. He was gracious enough to send along a few hundred loaded CETME rounds. I pulled the bullets in the rounds so that I could weigh the powder charge and have a place to work from when making up duplicate rounds from the components.

I stripped down and weighed the powder in 50 cartridges. Took an average of all of them, which were all within a tenth grain of average, one way or the other. I also weighed the BTSP bullets. 112 grains with a lead base and a plastic nose, all covered with a copper jacket and an exposed base. The diameter is .311 inches and the length is exactly the same as a Sierra BTSP 174 grain, 303 British. I also got access to a visual comparator and their shape is exactly the same. The only difference being the crimp canelure and the apparently rolled lip on the base.

The powder is a ball type of very small grains. About half the size of any other ball powder I've seen. Maybe it's a proprietary powder made especially for the CETME round. Whatever, it is very fast. Not as fast as shotgun or handgun powders but still very quick.

I also poured some kerosene into the cases the components came from to make the primers inert so I could extract them. Most of them were dud anyway but no sense taking a chance.

I have a few thousand proper sized Berdan primers on hand so replacing the primers wasn't a problem. I then reloaded the cases with the same average load and pulled bullets. I didn't want to shoot them in the FR7 because I wasn't sure how accurate it was and I also wasn't sure whether the problem with the cartridges was the powder or the primers. It turned out to be the primers, just like the fellow at SFRC said.

I loaded them up with standard velocity Berdan primers simply because that is all I've ever had.

I shot the first 10 rounds out of a Remington 700 Police Tactical. To say the rounds were accurate would be an understatement. Those 10 rounds all went into less than 2cm at 100m. 8 of them went under 1cm.

Now, that load was stout. Very stout. I wish I had a working chrony at the time but mine was having some issues, now fixed. My standard sight in at 100m for that rifle is 6cm high. That load, printed 8cm high. Maybe it was the lighter bullets??? No muzzle flash at all and no granules of powder on the snow. By the way, the powder load in those cases is slightly compressed. Recoil was similar to that of the 165 grain flat base Speer SPs I normally shoot out of that rifle. They're cheap and it really shoots them well. Maybe the recoil was similar because of the larger diameter bullets??

In all honesty, I didn't expect them to shoot well because of the over diameter for the bore. I think it has a lot to do with the bullet construction. That is interesting in itself. I may have to start doing some swaging, using reverse, open ended bases and solid noses.

It makes sense that the recoil would be substantial. The cartridges also had to work in full auto, blow back rifles so the impetus on the bolt needed to be enough to complete extraction and compress the return spring enough to clear the cartridge in the magazine to reload, first time, every time. By the way, from further study, the CETME semi and full auto rifle were fine with NATO spec ammo. Just needed a gas port adjustment.

I have shot hundreds of rounds of the CETME components through my FR7 without a glitch. Even the standard primers I use in the NATO cases I reload are flattened and spread by the normal powder charge. The FR7 isn't as accurate as the 700 but it is much better than I expected. The sights on the FR7 are excellent, once you get used to them. The bore of the FR7 I have measures .309in. It shoots regular .308 bullets very well. It will shoot the Speer 165 grain SPFB bullets I like into just over 4cm on a regular basis, if I do my part. The load I use in those cases is 40 grains of BLC2 over CCI 250 primers. This load is around 45,000 psi and shoot well in this rifle as well as my 1912 converted Steyr and Israeli converted Mauser.

As mentioned by Purple, I would be reluctant to shoot off the shelf sporting ammunition in this rifle. This stuff is close to 60,000 psi.

Regular NATO offerings might be OK. I've used them in my rifle but you only use them in yours at your own risk.
Click to expand...

This my friends is the very first actual information I have ever read on the interweb that describes the CETME cartridge in any substantial detail. Most self-appointed FR-7 and 8 experts have nothing to base their opinions on. FWIW, I shoot NATO ball in my FR-8 and I still have my face.

I especially like the Spanish back sight over all the other Mausers'. The aperture is where it should be, close to your eye. The big notch is easy enough to use in low light, and the wheel would match up with the right ammo. Maybe it does need CETME ammunition to hit where aimed.
 
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Claven2 said:
IMHO, if you reload at under 45,000psi, the rifle should be fine. Lots and lots of people shoot commercial ammo in them at close to 60,000psi and I never hear of grenades FR7's. I would not do that personally though.

FWIW, I would expect an Indian 2A1 to blow up from shooting .308 in it LONG before I'd expect and FR7 to blow, and lots of people foolishly shoot commercial 308 in those too.
Click to expand...


Okay, I have to ask....why?
 
Well, for starters, it's a rear-locking design with an action that is far springier and the receiver ring is about 1/3 the thickness of the 93 Mauser receiver ring. The 2A1 is made of a more modern alloy, but it's still pushing the edge of safety to shoot commercial ammo in it. The NATO ammo it is designed for is much lower pressure.
 
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