7mm Rem Mag vs 7mm WSM in a long action??

Suther

Suther

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I'm looking for an opinion as to which is better. Lets set out the base line first. Lets assume both are being built on long actions. Lets also assume the barrel length is the same. (Lets say 24", because it'll be a hunting rifle and I prefer shorter rifles).

Which is better? Does one have a velocity advantage over the other? I am (theoretically) picking a long action to avoid the issue of long bullets taking up powder space in the WSM.

So which given the choice, which would you pick and why?
 
Quickload predictions of a 24" 7mm Rem Mag seated to SAAMI spec 3.290" OAL with Hornady 162gr ELD-X. Bullet seated .050" from lands. Loaded to 60,000psi or 103% load density

Code: 
Cartridge          : 7 mm Rem Mag
Bullet             : .284, 162, Hornady ELD-X 2840
Useable Case Capaci: 75.053 grain H2O = 4.873 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.290 inch = 83.57 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 60000 psi, or 413 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 103 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

36 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant RL33                       103.0     77.3     5.01    3071    95.8    58903   15366   1.178  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL26                        89.3     66.5     4.31    3045   100.0    60000   13351   1.175  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL25                        98.3     67.7     4.38    3044   100.0    60000   13113   1.160  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Retumbo                    103.0     71.6     4.64    3027   100.0    56084   13821   1.176  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828ssc                         91.9     65.3     4.23    3025    98.9    60000   13662   1.156  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828                            97.2     65.3     4.23    3025    98.9    60000   13662   1.156  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H1000                      102.2     69.9     4.53    3022    99.2    60000   13453   1.148  ! Near Maximum !
AA MagPro                           92.9     68.4     4.43    3014    97.4    60000   14172   1.173  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL22                        92.8     64.9     4.21    3001    99.6    60000   13470   1.174  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum                      93.2     70.2     4.55    2994    99.9    60000   12992   1.166  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL23                        94.6     64.0     4.15    2965   100.0    60000   12040   1.183  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL19                        90.4     62.5     4.05    2964    99.5    60000   12878   1.173  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter                      86.1     61.5     3.98    2953   100.0    60000   12348   1.180  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831sc                     91.9     64.3     4.17    2945    98.3    60000   12817   1.170  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831                       95.6     64.3     4.17    2945    98.3    60000   12817   1.170  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL16                        86.8     58.5     3.79    2944   100.0    60000   11755   1.186  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4955 Enduron                    93.4     62.9     4.08    2916    98.5    60000   12454   1.175  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350                       88.6     60.0     3.89    2908    99.9    60000   11905   1.181  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831                            89.6     59.4     3.85    2908   100.0    60000   11529   1.195  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350                            87.0     59.8     3.88    2907    99.9    60000   11876   1.182  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V                 87.7     58.7     3.80    2886   100.0    60000   10875   1.191  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7977 Enduron                    98.3     67.3     4.36    2862    92.1    60000   12196   1.176  ! Near Maximum !

24" 7WSM loaded with same bullet, with one caliber of bullet below the case mouth (.284" shank depth). This puts OAL @ 3.08". Same load specs as above

Code: 
Cartridge          : 7 mm WSM
Bullet             : .284, 162, Hornady ELD-X 2840
Useable Case Capaci: 73.758 grain H2O = 4.789 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.080 inch = 78.23 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 60000 psi, or 413 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 103 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

36 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant RL33                       103.0     76.0     4.92    3049    95.5    57849   14980   1.191  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL26                        89.9     65.7     4.26    3044   100.0    60000   13098   1.180  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL25                        98.9     66.9     4.33    3043   100.0    60000   12863   1.165  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828ssc                         92.4     64.5     4.18    3022    98.9    60000   13392   1.161  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828                            97.7     64.5     4.18    3022    98.9    60000   13392   1.161  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H1000                      102.7     69.0     4.47    3019    99.1    60000   13184   1.153  ! Near Maximum !
AA MagPro                           93.4     67.5     4.38    3012    97.3    60000   13895   1.178  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Retumbo                    103.0     70.4     4.56    3008   100.0    55190   13522   1.188
Alliant RL22                        93.3     64.1     4.16    2998    99.6    60000   13209   1.178  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum                      93.7     69.4     4.50    2992    99.9    60000   12740   1.170  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL23                        95.1     63.3     4.10    2964   100.0    60000   11808   1.188  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL19                        90.8     61.8     4.00    2960    99.5    60000   12623   1.179  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter                      86.5     60.7     3.93    2950   100.0    60000   12107   1.186  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL16                        87.3     57.8     3.75    2941   100.0    60000   11522   1.192  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831                       96.1     63.5     4.11    2941    98.3    60000   12558   1.176  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831sc                     92.3     63.5     4.11    2941    98.3    60000   12558   1.176  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4955 Enduron                    93.9     62.1     4.02    2912    98.5    60000   12203   1.181  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831                            90.1     58.6     3.80    2905   100.0    60000   11300   1.201  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350                       89.0     59.2     3.84    2904    99.8    60000   11664   1.188  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350                            87.4     59.1     3.83    2903    99.9    60000   11637   1.188  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V                 88.2     58.0     3.76    2883   100.0    60000   10656   1.197  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7977 Enduron                    98.7     66.4     4.30    2856    92.0    60000   11933   1.182  ! Near Maximum !

and for kicks, 7WSM same as above but loaded to SAAMI spec 2.86" OAL

Code: 
Cartridge          : 7 mm WSM
Bullet             : .284, 162, Hornady ELD-X 2840
Useable Case Capaci: 70.240 grain H2O = 4.561 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.860 inch = 72.64 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 60000 psi, or 413 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 103 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

34 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant RL26                        91.7     63.9     4.14    3036   100.0    60000   12629   1.179  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL25                       100.8     64.9     4.21    3032   100.0    60000   12390   1.165  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828                            99.4     62.6     4.05    3006    98.7    60000   12849   1.163  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828ssc                         94.1     62.6     4.05    3006    98.7    60000   12849   1.163  ! Near Maximum !
AA MagPro                           95.1     65.5     4.24    2995    97.0    60000   13320   1.180  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL22                        95.0     62.2     4.03    2983    99.4    60000   12692   1.181  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum                      95.5     67.3     4.36    2980    99.8    60000   12251   1.170  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL33                       103.0     72.3     4.69    2969    94.1    54502   14063   1.220
Hodgdon H1000                      103.0     66.0     4.27    2959    98.5    57629   12507   1.174  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL23                        96.9     61.4     3.98    2953   100.0    60000   11365   1.190  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL19                        92.3     59.8     3.87    2943    99.3    60000   12115   1.182  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Retumbo                    103.0     67.1     4.35    2939    99.8    52327   12891   1.214
Ramshot Hunter                      88.0     58.8     3.81    2934   100.0    60000   11644   1.189  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL16                        88.9     56.0     3.63    2928   100.0    60000   11077   1.194  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831                       97.6     61.4     3.98    2921    98.0    60000   12024   1.179  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831sc                     93.8     61.4     3.98    2921    98.0    60000   12024   1.179  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4955 Enduron                    95.3     60.0     3.89    2892    98.2    60000   11680   1.186  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831                            91.6     56.8     3.68    2890   100.0    60000   10858   1.205  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350                       90.4     57.3     3.71    2885    99.7    60000   11187   1.192  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350                            88.7     57.1     3.70    2885    99.8    60000   11161   1.193  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4451 Enduron                    85.4     54.6     3.54    2872    99.9    60000   10984   1.194  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V                 89.7     56.2     3.64    2869   100.0    60000   10232   1.200  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4166 Enduron                    85.3     52.9     3.43    2853    99.9    60000   10723   1.186  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7977 Enduron                   100.1     64.1     4.15    2832    91.4    60000   11356   1.188  ! Near Maximum !
 
7 mm wsm pushing a 168 berger hunting vld, 67.6 grn H4831 sc, 2980 fps , 30thou off the lands, equals 1.2" groups @ 300 yrds for me ( 26" barrel )

no experience with the 7mm Rem mag

7mm wsm is based off the 404 Jefferies case so if building off , need an ultra mag action if mag feeding
 
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Ballistic are almost the same. If given the choice, my criteria would be everything other than ballistics. I'd choose 7mm Rem mag because it's a LOT easier to source ammos and brass. You'll find 7Rem Mag at every CT, for 7wsm only large hunting store carry them. For brass you're mostly gonna need to size them yourself from 300wsm or 270wsm.

WSM cartridge are super nice, but the availability of ammos and brass are a large step behind their long action counterparts (7mm being the worst offender I think). And for the heavier bullets, you'll need a long action, which are not always readily available for every rifle, and it kind of defeat the one purpose of wsm.
 
VinnyQC said:
Ballistic are almost the same. If given the choice, my criteria would be everything other than ballistics. I'd choose 7mm Rem mag because it's a LOT easier to source ammos and brass. You'll find 7Rem Mag at every CT, for 7wsm only large hunting store carry them. For brass you're mostly gonna need to size them yourself from 300wsm or 270wsm.

WSM cartridge are super nice, but the availability of ammos and brass are a large step behind their long action counterparts (7mm being the worst offender I think). And for the heavier bullets, you'll need a long action, which are not always readily available for every rifle, and it kind of defeat the one purpose of wsm.
Click to expand...

I have a 270 for easy access ammo. I understand that aspect of things, but that's not what this thread is about. I am well aware of the advantages of the rem mag in that respect. For now, All I am interested in is the ballistics of the two, in equal rifles. It seems hard to compare the them one to one because things are often different, whether it's barrel length or caveats that the heavy bullets in the wsm take up powder space ect.

I was just wondering, if I were to even the field as much as possible, which one would truely perform better? For this comparison, I feel like the longest and heaviest bullets are best to look at.
 
it becomes a matter of twist rate if your thinking ( perhaps rightly so... longer heavier bullets are better at long range ) , I think the heaviest you can get in 7mm is a 180 or a custom 189, some have success with a 1/9 while others say you need a 1/8 twist

either cartridge will work equally well and both are offered in factory guns

I am not sure what the twist rate is common in factory fodder... but I do know that limits bullet weight selection
 
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Suther said:
I have a 270 for easy access ammo. I understand that aspect of things, but that's not what this thread is about. I am well aware of the advantages of the rem mag in that respect. For now, All I am interested in is the ballistics of the two, in equal rifles. It seems hard to compare the them one to one because things are often different, whether it's barrel length or caveats that the heavy bullets in the wsm take up powder space ect.

I was just wondering, if I were to even the field as much as possible, which one would truely perform better? For this comparison, I feel like the longest and heaviest bullets are best to look at.
Click to expand...

Then both of your hypothetical rifles would have ballistics so similar it would probably boil down to particular rifles.
 
Grant Shave said:
it becomes a matter of twist rate if your thinking ( perhaps rightly so... longer heavier bullets are better at long range ) , I think the heaviest you can get in 7mm is a 180 or a custom 189, some have success with a 1/9 while others say you need a 1/8 twist

either cartridge will work equally well and both are offered in factory guns

I am not sure what the twist rate is common in factory fodder... but I do know that limits bullet weight selection
Click to expand...

The reason I am focusing on the longest and heaviest pills I can is because the general opinion of the WSMs seem to be they can equal their regular magnum counterparts with the lighter and mid-range weights, but they fall behind with the heavier pills due to the fact it encroaches on powder space.

VinnyQC said:
Then both of your hypothetical rifles would have ballistics so similar it would probably boil down to particular rifles.
Click to expand...

Thats basically what I expected would be the result, but I wasn't 100% sure because some reports claim the WSM can equal the Rem Mag using a 24" barrel on the WSM and 26" on the Rem Mag. (Possibly because the WSM is "more efficient" or something like that.)
 
Suther said:
The reason I am focusing on the longest and heaviest pills I can is because the general opinion of the WSMs seem to be they can equal their regular magnum counterparts with the lighter and mid-range weights, but they fall behind with the heavier pills due to the fact it encroaches on powder space.
Click to expand...

Yep, that's it. You get short action but lose on heavier bullets. If your hypothetical rifle can accept longer OAL WSMs, it would end up equal to a regular magnum. The problem however is that short/long action isn't the only reason why you can't have a super long WSM round. At some point the bullet will hit the rifling, so you'd need some kind of special chamber too. So that hypothetical rifle would need a long action and a longer than usual chamber. Then it would probably not be super great with some shorter bullets cause the jump would be too long.

Even in hypothetical situations there isn't an exact answer to you intial "which is better" question. You would have to define your hypothetical 7wsm better. But from a pure ballistics, there isn't really any situation where the 7wsm is better than the 7rem mag.
 
My thoughts after reading reloading manuals and comparing apples to apples pressure wise is that there is very little difference between the best 3-4 options in most caliber groups. Like hot rod cars, the last little bit of performance is very expensive and makes very little difference for most users. If you want an unusual chambering or throat length, build a custom. It won't cost much more than the $3-$4K modifications will cost once you add up the actual cost of each little step with shipping etc.
 
VinnyQC said:
Yep, that's it. You get short action but lose on heavier bullets. If your hypothetical rifle can accept longer OAL WSMs, it would end up equal to a regular magnum. The problem however is that short/long action isn't the only reason why you can't have a super long WSM round. At some point the bullet will hit the rifling, so you'd need some kind of special chamber too. So that hypothetical rifle would need a long action and a longer than usual chamber. Then it would probably not be super great with some shorter bullets cause the jump would be too long.

Even in hypothetical situations there isn't an exact answer to you intial "which is better" question. You would have to define your hypothetical 7wsm better. But from a pure ballistics, there isn't really any situation where the 7wsm is better than the 7rem mag.
Click to expand...

Well, I don't know of anyone making a WSM on a long action (why would they?) so I guess that would have to be a custom job, so lets assume its been chambered with a long throat to allow for cartridges that are longer than SAAMI spec...

Although, you make a good point about such a rifle potentially having issues with a long jump with lighter bullets. I guess that pretty much decides it for me then - because I would want the versatility of a decent range of bullets, from 140 to 180gr or so, looks like the regular Rem Mag would be the better option because the WSM would have to be built for either one end of the bullet weight spectrum or the other, and might not work so well at the opposite end.
 
Suther said:
Well, I don't know of anyone making a WSM on a long action (why would they?) so I guess that would have to be a custom job, so lets assume its been chambered with a long throat to allow for cartridges that are longer than SAAMI spec...

Although, you make a good point about such a rifle potentially having issues with a long jump with lighter bullets. I guess that pretty much decides it for me then - because I would want the versatility of a decent range of bullets, from 140 to 180gr or so, looks like the regular Rem Mag would be the better option because the WSM would have to be built for either one end of the bullet weight spectrum or the other, and might not work so well at the opposite end.
Click to expand...

There's no long actionwsm out of the box because as you say the whole point of the wsm is to get a short action, but Tikka T3/T3x are all inherently long action. You can change the bolts stop (or file it) on a wsm and you have a long action wsm rifle. The length of the ammo is still limited by the length of the magazine, but you can then use a cadex or MDT stock with AICS magazine and BOOM! you have a long action T3 chambered in a wsm caliber. That doesn't solve the chamber problem though.
 
Very little point investing in obecure or hard to find cartridges that match common easily available cartridges in ballistics. Hell even 150fps up or down is basically the same once you get out to a little bit of distance.
 
Hitzy said:
Very little point investing in obecure or hard to find cartridges that match common easily available cartridges in ballistics. Hell even 150fps up or down is basically the same once you get out to a little bit of distance.
Click to expand...

Yeah that makes sense. It's kinda what I was thinking all along, but I bought some 7mm wsm dies for cheap at WSS closing sale and I'm kinda trying to justify them... Probably just going to sell or trade them...
 
I like the ballistics of the 7mm WSM but the only chink in the armour is the lighter bullet requirement due to case and neck capacity. And I prefer to shoot heavy for caliber bullets for a given cartridge. Weight of bullet does have it's advantages and I have seen this in a number of calibers - like the 243, 270, 30-06, 300 WSM and the 9.3 x62. When I want to use a smaller caliber rifle I still choose a heavy bullet for that caliber. So it depends on what I'm hunting, and where I'm hunting. If I narrow it down to one caliber that I learned the effectiveness of a given cartridge I can point to the ole Fuddster 30-30. This is where I can look back and recall it's capabilities (and mine), for trajectory, hitting power and accuracy with open sights.
 
One problem with short magnum cases is they have less surface area to grip the chamber walls. And the early rifles had problems with bolt thrust and the headspace increasing from lug setback. Meaning longer cases have more surface area to grip the chamber walls and in a "dry" chamber they have "less" bolt thrust.

In my younger days I was a big .270 fan and always had "discussions" over what was better a .270 or 7mm magnum. Truth be told a 30-06 loaded at the upper levels is so close to the .270 and 7mm magnum it does not matter. Bottom line, the short cases have more bolt thrust and the longer belted magnums are a old design and can cause resizing problems. And a 30-06 has a better bullet selection than any 7mm.

Below is loading a 30-06 to the same pressures as a .270 and the only reason the 30-06 is loaded to lower pressures is the older rifles that are still being used. Food for thought, in a modern bolt action like a Remington 700 there is no reason a 30-06 can't be loaded warmer and the same pressures as the .270 Win. (ballistically speaking)

EPcuYSG.jpg
 
Don't trade the dies... 7mm WSM is the best if the WSM bunch... just accept the cartridge for what it is... a short action cartridge. Load medium weight bullets to maximum COL for your mag and let em rip. I use the 154 Hornady pills with RL-19 from a 22" Ruger KM77R MKII... it is a dandy hunting set-up for whatever you've a mind to point it at... big or small, near or far.
 
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