870 Experts: Wingmaster (1980) failures to feed

I

ichbins

Member
Rating - 100%
11   0   0
Location
Island
So I have an older 870 Wingmaster (non magnum, made in 1980) receiver currently wearing a 14" barrel.

The gun has a weird cycling issue that only happen when cycling it fast, such as for skeet pairs. Basically the empty shell gets ejected fine, but the new shell isn't lifted far enough to make it into the chamber. Instead, it nose dives into the bottom of the chamber face like so (staged here, but that's what it looks like):

SDTTbca.jpg


Relieving pressure on it by pulling the foreend back to the stop, the shell pops up the last little bit and chambers. I am 100% certainly not short stroking the gun, and I can reproduce this issue consistently with live ammo (but not with my snap caps).
It also never happens when cycling the gun slowly - if I pull the fore end back, wait half a second, and then slam it closed, it chambers every time. I know this sounds like a short stroke issue, but it's not. I am pulling the foreend back until the stop every time.

Things I have tried during the course of figuring out what is happening:

- Complete disassemble and clean, including taking the carrier dog spring out of the trigger group and cleaning everything up. No difference. The spring seems fine, too.
- Magazine. Replaced the follower and the spring (I first thought the shells weren't coming out of the magazine quick enough and stopping the lifter from working properly, now I'm certain the issue is behind the magazine somewhere). No difference.
- Replaced extractor, ejector, and ejector spring with new 3" ejector parts thinking the fresh shell is somehow coming in contact with the empty hull on it's way out. No difference, except I now have two ugly rivets on the left side of my receiver :(
Ejection is still on the weak side, maybe that's just inherent to the gun due to the small ejection port. This issue happens with regular old 2-3/4" shells, so there really shouldn't be the problem.
- verified fore-end is not hanging up on anything, and allows full bolt travel. No issues.
- verified bolt latch and other parts aren't interfering with lifter or shell on lifter.



I'm at a loss here. Has anyone experienced this before, and can tell me what else I need to try?
So far I've come across a few possible solutions but nothing that would clearly address a problem.
Remington sells a stronger carrier dog spring that is supposed to prevent this when a heavy shell is sitting on the lifter, but I am having this issue using 1Oz target shot. My stock spring seems fine, too.

There is some blueing worn of the carrier dog and other contact parts, but nothing looks at all like it's worn beyond use.

Is my lifter possible bent somehow? Do I need to spend another $100+ on this gun to get a whole new trigger group?
I'm getting pretty close to parting it out and buying a mossberg at this point...

Some more pictures

- Highest position the lifter goes to during bolt forward travel (bolt stopped right where it pops the lifter up):
qUqBJBO.jpg


- Lifter in full down resting position with bolt all the way open:
7iq936C.jpg
 
Last edited:
Like I said, I am most definitely not short stroking it. It was my first suspicion, despite never having had that problem with any other pump shotgun I've ever shot. Just to be certain I deliberately tried going over the top with it, to the point of hitting the stop like I'm operating a slide hammer. I even recorded the stroke on video, you can see and hear the action slam into the rear stop.
 
Have you owned it since new? Wondering if you have had it bead blasted. I had an 80s wingmaster and it was much more glossy. If you bought it used, maybe it's been rebuilt with express internals that are out of tolerance.
 
if you haven't already done so i would compare parts closely with another 870 that is operating perfectly. if anything is out of spec. replace that part. i had problems with an 870 police model and comparing parts gave me the answer to the problem.
 
Sounds like you're cycling the action faster than the shell lifter can keep up. Either the shell lifter is binding, perhaps due to old lubricant build up over time, or the carrier dog has worn. Dissasemble, clean and possibly replace the dog and spring. Perhaps this video will help. Best of luck with your repair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec4NsFYLsUg
 
Last edited:
Thanks everyone for your suggestions

- the receiver is refinished / ceracoated. All internals are original as far as I know, except for the listed parts I replaced while trying to fix this. Everything moves seemingly like they should with no undue contact or rubbing from what I can tell.

- The extractor is new, replaced in the course of trouble shooting this problem. No difference. Dimensionally it's identical to the original

- The lifter isn't coming in contact with anything that would prevent it from moving up

- the shells are hanging up before they chamber, so I don't think a burr or other barrel problem could cause this. I'll get my hands on another 870 barrel though and try it (I only have one 870 ATM)

- the lifter and carrier dog plus spring are my main suspects as well right now. I'm trying to source one locally, would be good to get the updated lifter anyhow. However none of the parts seem to be worn to the point where you'd expect failures..

- the only other idea I have is the trigger plate itself - if the lifter assembly has too much play on its hinge i suspect it might also cause a problem like this, however I will have to find a different 870 to compare
 
Last edited:
Update on this in case someone searching for 870 problems stumbles on it in the future.

I'm 99% certain I have found the issue.
I got my hands on another 870, a 2007 Marine Magnum XCS model to be precise. I removed both trigger groups and attached them side by side to each other using the pins. When pushing the shell lifters in the up position, as they would be while feeding a shell into the chamber, the lifter on the newer trigger group comes to rest about 4-5mm higher than the one on the problematic Wingmaster trigger group.

rEDwkW8.jpg

problem lifter on the left, new lifter on the right

Switching the shell lifters between the two trigger groups, this difference disappears which is a bit strange.. however either way, the new style slotted shell lifter lifts higher than the old, questionable 1980 lifter I was having trouble with. The difference seems to be the actual tongue part forward of the hinge, as the rest of the lifters seem to be parallel. Maybe the old one is actually slightly bent somehow.

I will try to run the gun with the new shell lifter installed this weekend, and if it runs, order a replacement.
 
Here is the fix for a carrier (lifter) that does not lift high enough. Remington calls it "stem bottom chamber".

First thing is to make sure the carrier dog follower spring is good. Remington suggests using the one from 870P which is black in colour. This will ensure the carrier dog is not slipping out of the notch on the bottom of the slide.
I suspect this is not the case with your gun.

Second thing is with the gun fully disassembled and the action open half way, push hard up on the tip of the carrier through the bottom of the gun and bend the carrier up. This will bend it up only on the front half. Do it gradually until the carrier lifts the shell up high enough.

Now, if you went too far and it is lifting the shell too high, close the action and use a large flat blade screwdriver and pry the carrier down a bit. Put a pad on the area you are using as a fulcrum so as not to damage the bottom of the receiver.

This is not my invention, it is straight from the Remington Factory Armourer Courses.

Call me if you need assistance.
 
Thanks for the gunsmithing tips. A bit more comparison revealed that in my case, the bottom position of the carrier is actually identical to the one on the newer gun. As in, the tip of the carrier sits in the same spot as the one on the functioning gun when in the "down" position, but in the "up" position it is 4-5mm lower. Flicking the carrier up and down, I can not figure out why exactly this is the case, but now I suspect there is something going on besides (or instead of) just a bent carrier. Possibly additional play on the hinge pin or something. It's harder to diagnose than it should be....

If I bend the carrier up like you said, I worry that it will be too high in the down position and catch the rim of the cartridge coming out of the magazine.

I am currently waiting for a replacement carrier to be shipped to me. I'm getting the newer style with the slot, which should be a worthwhile upgrade anyways.
 
I just looked at both my wingmasters and the shell lifter appears to be higher in mine than your looks in your first picture. The second picture looks about the same as mine, flush with the bottom of the receiver. It could just be the angle of the picture.
 
The saga continues.

I received my new shell lifter (carrier) last week and promptly installed it in the problematic gun. Just to be safe I also changed the carrier dog follower spring.

Result:
No Change!!!! ARRRRRRHG

The new carrier comes up to the exact same position as the old one did, suggesting that the problem is either the bolt carrier (which actuates the carrier dog and therefore the carrier)....


...or the receiver itself, specifically the height at which the trigger group sits relative to the rails for the bolt carrier is out of spec.

Further testing carrier out today.

- Measuring from the bottom edge of the loading port, the tip of the carrier comes up to 35mm in the (working) XCS, using all original parts.

- In the problem gun, the same measurement is around 31mm and the tip of the carrier is barely level with the bottom edge of the chamber, undoubtedly causing this problem

- timing of the carrier motion is identical in both guns.

- swapping bolt carriers, bolts, and barrels, as well as any combination of those between the guns makes no difference. The old gun is always low, the XCS is always ok.

- swapping the whole trigger groups creates an interesting in-between scenario, in which both carriers now raise to the same level of about 32.5-33mm as measured above. So right in between what they each do with their own trigger groups.

- swapping bolts and bolt carriers as well as trigger groups doesn't change this. So based on this I can eliminate the bolt carrier or bolt as the cause, and my conclusion is that this is an unfortunate stack of tolerances (or wear) between the trigger group and the receiver.


As of right now, I will leave the trigger groups swapped, and hopefully have two working guns. It seems that both carriers now are a few mm higher than the bottom of the chamber, so even considering some flex this *should* be fine. I will have to do extensive testing before I can trust them in this configuration.

Before and after the swap:

http://imgur.com/a/sam7l
 
Last edited:
Its not dependent on ammo.. I've tried various types including high brass slugs and buckshot, 2-3/4" and 3" etc.

I only have reloaded AA here, but even if it somehow cycled those, the gun would be next to useless to me as it needs to cycle slugs, which it currently doesn't.
 
ichbins said:
Its not dependent on ammo.. I've tried various types including high brass slugs and buckshot, 2-3/4" and 3" etc.

I only have reloaded AA here, but even if it somehow cycled those, the gun would be next to useless to me as it needs to cycle slugs, which it currently doesn't.
Click to expand...

No ??? You seem to know what is wrong so why isn't it fixed?? :) High brass slugs and buck shot both of which have the worst of the worst for hull quality
If it cycles the AA ammo fine it needs to be taken apart and it's components fitted and polished like a wingmaster was from the factory
I have seen these receivers blasted and coated like yours and turn into express models over night with respect to cycling and have to be reworked

Also try another barrel on that gun. Those short barrels are not known for any quality and may be the issue like an express
If these both fail adjust the carrier as another member outlines it is not diffucult
You asked for suggestions these are mine. You say you have same AA so try them for giggles if nothing else.
All the best with your repairs
Cheers Joe
 
Last edited:
Sorry I didn't mean to come across so dismissive of your suggestion. The reason I don't think this can't be blamed on hull quality is that the only thing on the shell that could possibly cause this issue is the diameter at the crimp, due to the way the shells are hanging up. If a shell was tapered on the outside, it would potentially feed better, but this wouldn't change the fact that the actual issue is the height of the lifter.

In other words I know what is wrong, the pictures and measurements clearly show it. I just don't know WHY it is wrong, and that's why it wasn't fixed. Something to do with lifting the carrier is out of spec but I can't narrow it down to one part, despite changing each part individually.

The gun had this issue (as well as some others) before it was re-coated and it still has it now. It is also just as smooth as it was before. As I said above I have now also tried 3 different barrels on this gun including the original 1980 wingmaster, to no effect.

My best guess right now is that the bolt has too much play on its rails leading to the carrier dog not pushing down far enough to lift the carrier. The leverage ratio there is such that a small difference on the back end would lead to a relatively big difference in height at the front.

Switching the trigger plate with the 2007 XCS plate solves it, and both guns seem to work as tested today. I actually fired some AA as well as a pile of my cheap Challenger stuff.

I'm thinking this is because the tolerances now stack up more favourably. Comparing to various other 870 (all Wingmaster models of different vintage), the height of the carriers on both is now in spec.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom