8x57 Help? anyone have a GO gauge I can borrow?

D

djbordie

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here is a paste from my other threads:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?696873-OAL-causing-me-troubles-1943-BYF-RC-headspace-field-ok&p=6230337#post6230337
https://www.reddit.com/r/reloading/comments/5s8g11/case_length_chambering_tests_scary_results/

TLDR:
  • Cases are 2.23" (although my calipers read 2.27", i checked today with various other calipers at work, some Mitutoyo and cheapo digitals)
  • bullet is Speer 200gr (Speer data says 3.2" overall length) (however nosler 200gr and 180 say 3.03" overall length...confuse a newb!)
  • Photos from left to right: 2.95, 3.03, 3.13, 3.17 (yes these are pulled bullets, I have speer 200gr pulls and nosler 200gr new, but their data shows differing lengths)
  • I will try the noslers @ 3.03 and see what happens, but given that the speers @ 3.03 were getting scratched, i dont know what to do
  • lee breech lock classic, setup as per the manual and each die setup as per the manual.

the K98 is a byf 43 Russian Capture in great shape (or so I though initially)
field gauge does not close

However am having issues with my hand loads chambering

http://imgur.com/a/hIEkI

Anyone have an 8x57 GO gauge in Ontario by chance?
Anyone want to sell me one?

Any suggestions on the scenario?

thank you
 
Way too much crap to read...

Why don't your loads chamber? Headspace does not cause that problem. The fact that it does not close on a field gauge is good. It may not close on a no go as well.

Lets go to the start...
Are you able to size a case and make it fit the chamber with no bullet ?

By chance do you have a factory round? If so, pull the bullet, dump the powder, and chamber and fire the empty case... how much the primer backs up will basically show how much clearance that factory round had...

If your rifle has slight headspace you can correct the clearance a reload has and completely compensate the differences.
 
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i hear you there, i have no factory loads unfortunately.

Do i really need a GO gauge to diagnose this?

I just received a Wilson Case Gauge, the brass looks perfect. above the bottom lip and below the top lip.

for example:

my 2.985" overall round chambered cleanly, my 3.1-3.2" rounds scratched the projectile and had a bit of resistance when chambering.
everyone ejected fine.

http://imgur.com/a/hIEkI

I have not yet tried chambering a case, but I bet that it chambers just fine. The low OAL brass/bullet chambered fine.
I will try just my sized and ready case to see.
 
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A go gauge will simply close in the chamber as it is supposed to... a no go gauge should not close...

If a sized case fits in the chamber, prime it and fire it... and see how much the primer backs up. That does not indicate the chamber headspace is excessive, it indicates how much clearance that piece of brass has...

If the primer has backed out considerably you need to create a false shoulder on the brass (neck it up larger) and then only size the case enough so this false shoulder can be felt when closing the bolt... then that brass is perfect...

If your sized brass fits in the chamber before seating a bullet in it... but not after seating the bullet... you may have the bullet seating die set to close to the shell holder and the crimp function is caused the shoulder of the brass to buckle... raise the die...

or maybe you are seating the bullets out too far and they engage the rifling too hard... surely you would realize if the bullet is just out too far?

go and no go gauges have nothing to do with how long you seat your bullets...
 
Do you mean prime a brass and actually fire it?? live? (obviously without projectile and powder LOL?)
Sounds like a fun test.

bullet seating is all with the spec of the load data. aka 2.22-2.24" brass + bullet = 3.2" (thats when the projectile got scratched and had slight pressure on closing bolt)
or 2.22-2.24 brass + bullet = 2.895" and chambered fine.

OAL 3.03, 3.1, and 3.2 OAL were the troublesom rounds. (troublesome in that the bolt had more pressure closing than the 2.895" round. Ejection fine on all)
I am going to re confirm everything tonight and make a more obvious comparison.

are you serious about striking a shell+primer in the rifle? hah
 
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Yes, I am serious about firing a primed case and inspecting the primer back out...

OAL 3.03, 3.1, and 3.2 OAL were the troublesome rounds....troublesome in that the bolt had more pressure closing than the 2.895" round.

All this thread and it appears your issues with your hand loads chambering is you are jamming the bullets into the rifling... the longer you oal the more jam...

?
 
yes sir
but of course when i started this over on k98 forum, the definitive answer was something with the rifle...not my loads.
Typical for the russian captures to have issues, but i figured with my field gauge was OK, i was probably in the clear.

my loads are to spec so far, wilson case gauge to test the datum/length, very meticulous single stage loading, etc.

any thoughts?

here is more info if it helps any:
well off the hop, first test. Cant really chamber a case well, it doesnt go up the ramp nicely. nor does it attach to the exractor easily.
i tried magazine feed and also loose in chamber. I can get it to chamber if I help it along to sit in the extractor or up the ramp.
it extracts like a champ.

here are some photos to start of that area...
http://imgur.com/a/vKthE

I am seating some projectiles now in various lengths to test.

field gauge closes this far before resistance
http://imgur.com/B8F3b12

Field gauge: as per pic, about 2oclock

3.25" OAL - wont close, bullet lodged in barrel, removed with a couple taps.

3.2" OAL - wont close, bolt feels resistance around the field gauge area.

3.14" OAL - wont close, resistance further down

3.05" OAL - bolt closes nicely, see sharpie picture for where its catching/scratching up the ramp/throat.


All extract nicely


http://imgur.com/a/RwJIm
3.05" round, chambered and bolt close.
 
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is your bolt force matched or original to the rifle?
if it doesn't close on the field gauge , it might not go on a go either.
get some factory ammo , remove the firing pin from the bolt and see if the bolt will close on a factory round without the firing pin and shroud.
if it won't close on the factory round you need a different bolt or to have the chamber reamed.
 
nothing matches on this rifle. so force matched i guess.

i can chamber a hand load 3.03" round no problem. Round is as to spec as can be I suppose too, wilson datum gauge, used 3 diff calipers to confirm case length and overall, etc.

the factory loads are very short too, as they are typically 170 gr or less...
most likely 2.9xx"
If my 3.03 can chamber, a factory load will chamber.

Look at these projectiles here, all within the 2.9-3.06" suggested COL...they would all fit in my rifle. However the Speer 200gr projectile, from the speer manual suggests 3.2" COL, which doesnt fit...
https://www.norma.cc/en/Ammunition-Academy/Loading-Data/8x57-JS/
 
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Sheesh - You don't have problem with your brass! And if you feel some (even slight) resistance on the field gage then your chamber is acceptable.
Its your bullets that are hitting the rifling. Different bullets have different profiles at the ogive (google "ogive"), and each rifle has varying dimensions at the leade (google "leade"), so that the reloading book spec length really doesn't mean very much.For the particular bullet you are using, you have determined that the maximum cartridge length is ~ 3.03 inches. if you want to continue using this bullet, subtract 30 to 40 thou off the length and reload away.If you change bullets, then you cannot rely upon the maximum length above. You need to re-establish what is a suitable length for your rifle. You can do this by trial and error, as you have just done. Alternatively, if the bullet has a cannelure (google "cannelure"), you can load to the cannelure with reasonable confidence that the loaded cartridges wont jam.

BTW - Mausers are controlled round feed. That means they are designed to feed from the magazine only. If you try to single feed by dropping a round in the open chamber, you will encounter substantial resistance as you try to force the extractor over the cartridge rim. If you try to do this, it is possible to bend the extractor lip such that is then too tight to the bolt face to accept a rim feeding from the magazine...
If you try to chamber a piece of brass only, even in a happy Mauser, you will likely have the brass hang up on the feed ramp or breech face. This is due to the case not have a bullet to guide it. The accepted procedure is to remove the bolt, insert the case under the extractor, and insert the bolt.
 
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Great info! thank you sir.

I hope I can chalk all this up to newb nervousness.

But realistically, why is the speer 200gr data @ 3.2" col, yet my k98 cant even fathom that COL...lol
Nosler 200gr data is 3.03", i can hit that safely if my rifle is OK with 3.05". but then it seems scary to load a speer 200gr at 3.03"
why is nosler OK with that short length, but not speer. if you seat the projectile more shallow than the load data, it can cause pressure issues right? but then why would the nosler be so short in comparison.
actually its more like the Speer data is much different than the averages for 200gr projectiles. My lyman 50th says 3.1" for 200gr...other manuals say 3", etc.


scared the piss out of me.

maybe this is a blessing in disguise and i have a very tight (accurate hopefully) chamber.
 
Different bullets, different test rifles, different load test results. That's why, as a reloader, you have to learn how to safely work up a load. Yes - if you load a bullet to a shorter OAL pressure may be affected - that's why you start at minimum load. And if you don't know how to recognize pressure signs, stay near minimum load until you can.
FWIW - Most 8X57 load data is quite anemic, like a lot of the old milsurp calibers. So, there is a lot of "margin" in your load data already. If you know what your doing, you can push the 8X57 to ~ 30-06 levels of performance.
 
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Thank you,

So given the load data of 200gr projectiles varies from 2.95-3.2"
I would think I am certainly in the clear if 3.03 fits nicely in my rifle. Stick to that level until I get some fire formed brass and do further testing
Stay to the low end of the grain data (42gr-46gr is the typical for IMR 4046 with 200gr)

I believe I will get factory ammo to start...seems most safe.

so this whole panic may not be too serious eh?
 
No, you're freaking yourself out. Each chamber is slightly different, as is the throat, leade etc. I usually measure the COL with the bullet I want to use, first by putting that bullet into the bore and measuring, then by measuring to the bolt face on a closed chamber. Those two measurements tell you what the max col is for that bullet in that gun. Then I measure the magazine to see if it will hold a cartridge assembled to my desired length. After that I adjust accordingly. FWIW - dan
 
Thank you Dan,

Do I need any fire formed brass to measure the max COL?

or what technique are you using to feel that, I dont quite understand how to measure this with brass and bullets...
 
The over all length of a particular bullet for your rifle can be measured by closing the bolt on an empty chamber, inserting a flat tipped rod through the muzzle. Wrap a piece of masking tape right at the muzzle indicating that length. Pull the rod out 6 inches or so... don't close the bolt in a fired position, leave it cocked or remove the firing pin... a protruding firing pin tip would make it hard to get an accurate measurement.

Then remove the bolt, take a pencil or other small dowel and push the bullet up into the rifling until it stops... slowly push the rod in from the muzzle until you feel the bullet... by pushing slightly back and forth with the rod and the pencil you can feel the bullet engage the rifling... leave the bullet in the rifling and bring the rod up to it... touching the engaged bullet... now mark the rod at the muzzle with another piece of masking tape as you did previously. The distance between the two markings can be measured with calipers and will be very accurate for you to use... way more accurate than some figure in a book.
 
Don't forget to knock 30 to 40 thou off your 3.03 COL, or the measurement as determined in above trial. The reason for this is to give you some margin to the barrel lands. Your bullet seating process will have some natural variation, as do your bullets - even from box to box of the same bullet. Inadvertently jamming the bullet into the lands can have consequence, particularly if you plan to use the rifle for hunting. (Load bullet, jam pulls bullet out of case when extracting at the end of a run. powder all over the place and bullet stuck in the bore...)
 
So I will determine my COL as per Gun tech's method and go bac0 .030 or .040.

Realistically, for now, if the 3.05 round chambered fine. I should dial back the seating to say 3.02 or 3.03 and go from there.

first i will dial in this COL...then worry about making my rounds.

thank you both.
 
Now that is one cool technique!

I am repeating 3-4 times to confirm, initial tests show 3.13"

tried 4 nosler 180gr projectile, 3.13 and 3.155 were my findings.

So lets say the COL of this bullet with this k98 is 3.14".
I should probably load 3.1" max with probably any round...The 200gr are rounder than the 180gr for some reason, i would double check how they seat.
Should i start at maybe 3.05 instead of 3.1? and work up...

Next test is the go gauge and I think im confident this rifle is safe.

Although the projectiles are being scratched even at 3.03", but its probably the ramp or lands right? vertical scratch, above the brass.
http://imgur.com/a/RwJIm
 
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Very good info here.

I've had some similar resistance using a 150gn Sierra bullet, S&B brass case, federal large rifle primer in an M48A. Not often as I used the same 20 brass casings and a local gunsmith/merchant suggested the brass casing as well. Since it only happened twice in a 2 round trip to the range he suggested that it could have been the casing neck wasn't the right dimensions.
Thank you for posting your results here, time to take some notes and do some more testing/checking.

I'm not saying the situation is the same but I checked my binder, I use 3.010" OAL.
 
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