90gr Berger VLD and the 223 - 500m Group 1 1/16"X 1/8" see post 357

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90gr Berger VLD and BT and the 223 - 300m BT Group see post 418

Thought I would start a new thread as there seems to be alot of interest AND it keeps the info in one place.

The purpose of this thread will be gather info and testing from shooters on the 22cal 90gr Berger VLD and its use in 223 and other cartridges. My focus is its application with respect to F class shooting. Would love to hear input from other disciplines like High Power/Palma, Tactical, even hunting.

From Bryan Litz's new book, the G7 Average from 3000fps to 1500fps is 0.281. The G1 average is 0.551.

This provides some very exciting potential performance not seen in this cal before.

For comparison: All G7 average data from Bryan's book.

Berger 6mm 105gr VLD 0.272
Berger 6mm 108gr BT 0.262
Berger 6mm 115gr VLD 0.279
DTAC 6mm 115gr 0.276
Hornady 6mm 105gr Amax 0.252
Sierra 6mm 107gr MK 0.261

Berger 22cal 90gr VLD 0.281

Berger 130gr 6.5mm VLD 0.282
Berger 140gr 6.5mm VLD 0.313
Hornady 140gr Amax 0.299
Lapua 139gr Scenar 0.285
Sierra 142gr MK 0.301

Berger 30cal 185gr VLD 0.281

YES, this particular 22cal bullet has a BC that BEATS ALL commonly used 6mm VLD/Match bullets readily available in the Canadian market and knocks on the door of the larger 6.5's.

In a 22BR/Dasher or 22/250, this bullet can easily go 2900 to a possible high of 3200fps. Run the numbers and this puts it right there with many popular options. All with substanitally less recoil and less component costs.

For mid range F/O, this could really help recoil shy shooters get into the game and be very competitive. At 3000fps, this 22 will equal my 6.5 Mystic pushing 139gr Lapua Scenars for wind drift and push the shooter with 50% of the recoil.

Not bad, not bad at all....

In a 223, it may change the F T/R landscape. Finally, there is a bullet that can run with a super sized 308 all the way out to 1000yds. Again, recoil shy shooters can compete on an equal footing and for substantially less cost. What a great way to get juniors and ladies involved. And shooters like me who have been there and been beat up by the 308 enough to look for gentler options.

As a quick ballpark, shooting this 223 combo is about 1/2 the cost of shooting a 308 and 1/3 the cost of common F/Open options. It might be even cheaper depending on the cost of barrel replacement.

This has certainly caught the eye of some very talented shooters both in Canada and the US.

I hope that we can post links to their developments so this post can be a ready reference for this data.

Areas we need to figure out ASAP:
-required twist rates vs muzzle velocities
-Maximum working velocities for 223 and other chamberings.
-Load data - chamber info would be helpful too. Distances to lands
-Muzzle velocities at various barrel lengths
-Accuracy both good and bad
-Rifle set up.

I will be getting a box of 90gr VLD's shortly to test in my 22" Shilen 8 twist 223 Savage. The initial goal will be to see if the 8 twist is enough twist. Then get some general data for Varget and possibly H4350 (doubt it will work given my shorter throat length).

Look forward to your info.

Jerry
 
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Hopefully Rob and later on, myself will be able to contribute to this thread in detail. Definitely tagged for interest for anyone else's info.
 
Hopefully, we will be able to find out what 'practical' is.... at both ends of the spectrum

I think there is going to be some balancing of twist vs muzzle velocity as is common with other fast magnums.

This bullet is definitely pushing the structural limits so how fast can you go with X twist before it blows up?

How long of a barrel vs twist vs velocity?

Will # of grooves help?

This is the sort of stuff I would love to see collected so everyone can enjoy this new technology.

We know that Berger is using their 'thick' jacket with these bullets so they should be more tolerant of speed. But how fast? The LR ballistics would be very interesting if you could push them 3200 to 3300fps. Right there with the 338LM

Might even make a decent deer bullet?????

Jerry
 
Here is some info that SteveB emailed me.

"Hi Jerry, Mick and Ian

I loaded up some of the Berger 90 VLD’s Jerry sent up this week and went out this morning. Slight breeze but mostly calm’ish conditions with no mirage.

I shot 10 shots at 300 meters from the mat using the Rempel bipod as if I was shooting a match.

I think this qualifies as a good target, however, I feel considering the way I shot the group, I could actually do better. Time will tell.

Jerry, you can post it on CGN on the tread you started if you want to talk about the 22BR. Velocity is about 2900 fps.

I believe this is the best target I have either shot at 300 meters.

My rifle was the new XR100 and the 6 x 24 S111 Sightron using the new 1 in 7 twist Kreiger barrel I got from Ian.

Steve

BR22300MeterGroup.jpg
 
The speed of 3300fps is likely a practical maximum using common 'magnum' cases like the 22/250AI and Swift. Whether the bullet shoots accurately much past 3000fps is still up in the air.

We have no shortage of powders that can provide the thrust. H4831SC would be my first powder to try. H1000, Re25 are all excellent options.

Here is some SWAG. The Lee 2nd Ed load manual lists 37gr of XMR4350 pushing 80gr bullets to 3162fps at 60,000psi. Odds are a 24" or 26" barrel was used. That means that 3200 to 3250fps can easily be reached just by making the barrel longer (30").

H4831SC was not tested and I know that you can get 42gr of powder into this case (THIS IS NOT LOAD DATA BUT HOW MUCH WILL FIT IN THE CASE!!!!). In a long barrel, that might get the 80gr bullets to 3300fps (???)

The 90gr bullet should reach 100fps of the 80gr max speeds and still stay in the sane side of pressures so 3200fps is possible.

First thing for me is see if the 8 twist will stabilize the bullet at slow 223 speeds - 2700fps. If it does, then going much faster is simply a function of what the bullet can tolerate.

We know 7 twist works.
Jerry
 
I opened the thread and walked away. Now there's a bunch of new stuff that showed up when I posted the above. That 300m groups looks very interesting.

You better get out to the range soon Jerry...this is looking very interesting.
 
I'll do a report from the east when I get those 90's. Factory 26" Savage 223, 1-7. I'll get some Lapua brass from Peter and some Reloader17 to try. It may work loaded hot, only one way to find out. I have several powders here to try, its early but the burn rate of 4350 looks like a starting point but with only 26" I'm not so sure. It shouldn't be difficult to find a fast accurate load, the only real issue I see is getting low sd. The right powder and primer combo may or may not be easy to find.
 
Jerry: From all that I have read, you need at least a 1 in 7 to make these 90 VLD's work. The 22 BR case obviously works well and now I am considering a 22-47 Lapua to move the velocities up a bit while maintaining reasonable pressures. I have a very accurate 223 Kreiger 1 in 7 twist barrel in heavy Palma contour I could rechamber. It won't do for the 22BR case because it wouldn't clean up the 223 chamber but would be perfect to try the 22-47 Lapua. Barrel life wouldn't be much but it would be an interesting experiment. Steve
 
Steve, I think a 22-6.5X47L is going to be a smoking combo. I think that is pretty much the ideal case volume for 3000 to 3200fps and the cases are strong. The improved shape will be less likely to stretch vs the 22/250

At these elevated velocities, you may not need a 7 twist to stabilize - 8 twist may be enough. In a 223, an 8 twist may be marginal?????. Too many questions but it will be alot of fun figuring this out.

I don't think barrel life will be any worse then the larger case 6mm and 6.5's. You don't plan on shooting the 223 in F T/R?

BUM, that was my orig thought but we now know that the 223 WILL make it shoot. As to what is needed to make it shoot well....that is what we hope to test.

A long throat is a given as these long bullets would take up alot of space and you need all you can get. For powders, N550 is already tested and proven to work. However, I think Varget and H4350 plus Re17 are worthy of more testing.

The issue is getting a small enough kernel so you can get enough powder into the case. Varget is fast enough that compressed loads are not likely. H4350 is on the big side but slow enough to make sense. Re17 is small but slower then H4350 so will be interesting to see if it can get any speed out of this case volume.

As for barrel length, I have not seen much velocity gain in my barrels once you go past 26". yes, it can go faster, but the gain per inch is not great - pretty small case. I think 26 is a nice min with 28 and 30" long 'enough'.

Be interesting to see how this all develops. look forward to your data and testing.

Jerry
 
I been thinking of converting my 223 XR into another 22Br / 22-47 Lapua using the 90's. I have been thinking if I am going to compete I might as well stay in "Open" and have fun with the big dogs!

Also, I was thinking of converting my blue match rifle back to a 308 and use that in combined FR/T and Tactical (if that comes around)

Too much time driving back and forth to Bridge!!!

Steve
 
If the 90's can work as a 223, I wouldn't bother shooting a 308 for tactical. I know that my 80gr set up will keep up with most 308 loads in standard length barrels.

The 90 would be another step up.

Enjoy the commute.

Jerry
 
90gr VLD $34.50/box

I think the 223AI will get close to the 22BR meaning 2800 to 2900fps or approx 50 to 100fps higher then the standard 223 all things being equal.

With these small cases, 1gr increase in case volume is huge for increasing potential performance.

Jerry
 
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