Recently acquired an E-series '97 trenchgun. It's a takedown, but I can't take it down. Need help. Magazine plug is specific to the heat shield bayonet lug, so there is no magazine push-button for takedown. I removed the heat shield, and can rotate the mag tube, but I can't get the slide to move forward to release the action. Any suggestions? Were these guns meant NOT to be takedowns? Thanks.
97 trench takedown
- Thread starter MTF
- Start date
MTF said:
Hi MTF,
My 1897 Trenchgun is a solid frame, so I don't have one in front of me to look at. But, when you say that you can't move the slide forward, what position is it in when you rotate the mag tube? The reason I ask is because with all my takedown '97's, the slide is fully forward when the mag tube is rotated (throughout the take-down process, for that matter). Even so, the action slide usually has to be pushed forward another quarter of an inch so that the actuator arm clears the receiver.
Another thing it could be (if the actuator arm is clearing the receiver) is the direction that you're twisting the mag/barrel assembly relative to the receiver - it's the opposite direction from what you'd intuitively think it would be. (NOTE: If it doesn't break down with minimal to moderate pressure, don't apply more force - you'll crack the butt stock at the wrist just behind the trigger guard.).
Having said that. The impression I get from your post is that you're competent and that neither of these are the problem. Can you take some shots of the mag assembly at both ends so we can get a better feel for the problem?
SS
Straightshooter -
Thanks for your comments. I think I didn't make my situation clear. And I'm sorry but I'm of the age where using digital cameras and transferring the image to the internet is beyond my technical capabilities.
Because it's a trench gun, there is a heat shield. The mag plug has a stub that indexes the bayonet retainer, and is different from the mag plug on a civilian takedown. There is no push-through mag takedown pin at the plug end of the mag as in civilian takedowns.
I removed the heat shield and simply rotated the mag tube into what I thought (based on my experience with civilian takedowns) would be the position that would allow me to rotate the barrel/mag unit. However, I'm aware that the slide has to be pushed forward, and it simply didn't go. Further, there seems to be no way the mag/barrel assembly will rotate the 90 degrees to allow the threads to disengage. It's all very puzzling.
The gun has the two serial numbers you find on takedowns, and there is a hole at the end of the mag tube for the push-through. I won't force the thing. At this point all I can think to do is to WD-40 the beast to within an inch of its life and wait to see if that will help free up something that might be stuck.
Sigh.
Thanks for your comments. I think I didn't make my situation clear. And I'm sorry but I'm of the age where using digital cameras and transferring the image to the internet is beyond my technical capabilities.
Because it's a trench gun, there is a heat shield. The mag plug has a stub that indexes the bayonet retainer, and is different from the mag plug on a civilian takedown. There is no push-through mag takedown pin at the plug end of the mag as in civilian takedowns.
I removed the heat shield and simply rotated the mag tube into what I thought (based on my experience with civilian takedowns) would be the position that would allow me to rotate the barrel/mag unit. However, I'm aware that the slide has to be pushed forward, and it simply didn't go. Further, there seems to be no way the mag/barrel assembly will rotate the 90 degrees to allow the threads to disengage. It's all very puzzling.
The gun has the two serial numbers you find on takedowns, and there is a hole at the end of the mag tube for the push-through. I won't force the thing. At this point all I can think to do is to WD-40 the beast to within an inch of its life and wait to see if that will help free up something that might be stuck.
Sigh.
Okay, I'm getting a better picture of what you're describing, now.
When you rotate the mag assembly, that rotation should be clockwise as you look down the gun from butt stock to forend, or counter-clockwise as you look from the muzzle. The rotation required is almost exactly 1/2 turn.
Next, the mag assembly pulls out of the receiver towards the muzzle. There's threads on the receiver end of the mag assembly (coarse threads stamped into the mag tube - not sharp threads as would be cut by a die). The mag tube will pull out far enough to clear the receiver completely. Then you make sure the action slide is all the way forward and also clear of the receiver. At this point, the mag assembly can be rotated and the mag assembly separates from the receiver.
Since you don't have the pin to define how far to turn the mag, you may need to try a few degrees back and forth until it's aligned so that it will pull out. Turning it slightly clockwise and counter clockwise while pulling it out toward the muzzle may help you find the correct orientation. Once you do, I would recommend marking it with a mark on the receiver and lined up with a similar mark on the mag tube, so you can disassemble more easily next time.
In very rare cases, the joint could be seized and require penetrating oil, but that is unlikely to be the cause, or to do any good.
Let us know if you have any other problems.
SS
When you rotate the mag assembly, that rotation should be clockwise as you look down the gun from butt stock to forend, or counter-clockwise as you look from the muzzle. The rotation required is almost exactly 1/2 turn.
Next, the mag assembly pulls out of the receiver towards the muzzle. There's threads on the receiver end of the mag assembly (coarse threads stamped into the mag tube - not sharp threads as would be cut by a die). The mag tube will pull out far enough to clear the receiver completely. Then you make sure the action slide is all the way forward and also clear of the receiver. At this point, the mag assembly can be rotated and the mag assembly separates from the receiver.
Since you don't have the pin to define how far to turn the mag, you may need to try a few degrees back and forth until it's aligned so that it will pull out. Turning it slightly clockwise and counter clockwise while pulling it out toward the muzzle may help you find the correct orientation. Once you do, I would recommend marking it with a mark on the receiver and lined up with a similar mark on the mag tube, so you can disassemble more easily next time.
In very rare cases, the joint could be seized and require penetrating oil, but that is unlikely to be the cause, or to do any good.
Let us know if you have any other problems.
SS
I should add that I understand your frustration. But, you'll see that, once the technique is understood, it'll come apart easily for you.
More importantly, you are in possession of the finest tactical shotgun ever made. Not only that, but a piece of history with amazing provenance (what we wouldn't give to hear the stories if these could speak). Congratulations on a great score!
But, don't let your frustration lead to haste. The best part of having a historically significant and unfamiliar piece is the honeymoon stage - when you don't know everything about it. Enjoy it while it lasts.
SS
More importantly, you are in possession of the finest tactical shotgun ever made. Not only that, but a piece of history with amazing provenance (what we wouldn't give to hear the stories if these could speak). Congratulations on a great score!
But, don't let your frustration lead to haste. The best part of having a historically significant and unfamiliar piece is the honeymoon stage - when you don't know everything about it. Enjoy it while it lasts.
SS
indeed. I've got a 1942 M97 takedown trenchgun, and I'm in the same boat-can not get it apart. I've had the mag tube off, the slide out, but just can't get the barrel attatchment to turn. This inspires me to try again, although some pics of the proper procedure would help.
Doing this with still pics would take an awful lot of images. But, maybe we can get to the root of the problem with just a few.
The first step is to remove the heat shroud assy. The next step is to turn the mag tube (counter clock-wise as you look down the muzzle of the barrel) approximately a half turn. Next, we pull the mag tube straight up towards the muzzle. Since you have no reference point for where to stop rotating, it may be necessary to rotate the mag tube back and forth to align the interrupted threads so the tube can be lifted. It should come out about an inch and a quarter and expose the coarse, interrupted threads at the bottom. This pic is what the breach end of the mag tube should look like at this stage:
Next (very important) make sure the action slide is all the way forward towards the muzzle. Once certain, you should be able to turn the entire barrel/magasine assembly in the same direction as the mag tube rotated (counter clock-wise looking down the barrel). The next shot is an image of what the receiver to barrel/mag assy will look like as it starts to open up. (Sometimes a previous owner will have adjusted this joint too tightly and then forced it to get it closed. When they do this, it is VERY difficult to get the gun to open, even if all steps have been executed correctly up to this point. I once scratched up a receiver trying to free one that was in this condition. I've since decided that the best way of dealing with a seized one is to leave it alone and check it after every 500 rounds or so. The whole purpose of the adjustment sleeve is to allow for taking up the little bit of slack that develops at the joint over years of use. If you wait long enough, it will eventually loosen up a bit and make it possible to open a seized assemby without damaging anything.)
The next image is of the joint after the mag assembly has completely opened up. You can see on the end of the barrel there's a sleeve with finer threads than the mag tube, but which are also interrupted. This sleeve can be adjusted so that any looseness in the take down joint is eliminated. It's this adjustment that some people over do - they don't realise the joint tightens as it rotates back into place. Instead of picking the correct adjustment notch where the assembly will be tight when closed, they pick the next one that achieves a tight joint just before the assy is fully rotated back into position and they force it closed instead of going and backing off on the adjustment by one notch.
I hope this explains it better for you and that you aren't in possession of guns that were over adjusted.
The first step is to remove the heat shroud assy. The next step is to turn the mag tube (counter clock-wise as you look down the muzzle of the barrel) approximately a half turn. Next, we pull the mag tube straight up towards the muzzle. Since you have no reference point for where to stop rotating, it may be necessary to rotate the mag tube back and forth to align the interrupted threads so the tube can be lifted. It should come out about an inch and a quarter and expose the coarse, interrupted threads at the bottom. This pic is what the breach end of the mag tube should look like at this stage:
Next (very important) make sure the action slide is all the way forward towards the muzzle. Once certain, you should be able to turn the entire barrel/magasine assembly in the same direction as the mag tube rotated (counter clock-wise looking down the barrel). The next shot is an image of what the receiver to barrel/mag assy will look like as it starts to open up. (Sometimes a previous owner will have adjusted this joint too tightly and then forced it to get it closed. When they do this, it is VERY difficult to get the gun to open, even if all steps have been executed correctly up to this point. I once scratched up a receiver trying to free one that was in this condition. I've since decided that the best way of dealing with a seized one is to leave it alone and check it after every 500 rounds or so. The whole purpose of the adjustment sleeve is to allow for taking up the little bit of slack that develops at the joint over years of use. If you wait long enough, it will eventually loosen up a bit and make it possible to open a seized assemby without damaging anything.)
The next image is of the joint after the mag assembly has completely opened up. You can see on the end of the barrel there's a sleeve with finer threads than the mag tube, but which are also interrupted. This sleeve can be adjusted so that any looseness in the take down joint is eliminated. It's this adjustment that some people over do - they don't realise the joint tightens as it rotates back into place. Instead of picking the correct adjustment notch where the assembly will be tight when closed, they pick the next one that achieves a tight joint just before the assy is fully rotated back into position and they force it closed instead of going and backing off on the adjustment by one notch.
I hope this explains it better for you and that you aren't in possession of guns that were over adjusted.
Last edited:
