9mm reloads for IPSC OAL question? velocity and pressure

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CzarNY

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Hey guys

Got into IPSC recently and got a few questions but first here are the specs:

Pistola is a CZ shadow
Dillon 650XL
Dillon dies
Random brass
Titegroup powder
CCI, Federal, Winchester small pistol primers.
projectile 124gr Campro Hollow points

I have been only shooting practices no matches this winter and here is what i have been loading:

3.8gr titegroup with OAL 1.075, crimp .375.

Now from doing a bit of research looks like my OAL is short and i could increase the powder to about 4gr with a longer OAL to make MINOR in IPSC.

Also I know the rule of thumb being.

If you increase the overall length you will DECREASE the velocity and pressure.

If you decrease the overall length you will INCREASE the velocity and pressure.

But what is best for accuracy and recoil?

With my short OAL and less powder I am able to get a higher velocity and pressure to get my round good for a MINOR factor but I see a lot of loads that use a larger OAL with increased powder to get the velocity and pressure to make MINOR.

Either way you are still getting Minor but what is the best recipe to get get less recoil and more accuracy?

Im thinking with a bigger OAL and bit more powder the recoil might be more manageable but I don't have a lot of experience.

Also How much crimp are you guys using on your 9mm rounds?

I really just want to make the pistol react to the reloads so there is less recoil and more accuracy for MINOR IPSC.
 
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The chamber length in the Shadow is known to be a little shorter than other 9's. Best to make up a few dummy rounds in different lengths and see what length starts to contact the lands on yours. I always kept mine a little short (around 1.10) to ensure good feeding. Start with a round that feeds properly and then play with the charge weight over a chrono to get your power factor. I run between 130 and 135 to give myself a margin. Hope this helps.
 
Good advice from Viper26 and Spawn-inc.... Most shadows when new wont take a cartridge over 1.085".... After you have run several thousand rounds the barrel will accept longer OAL's... I run 1.115"with the 125 g Zero JHP-C and 1.150"with RN bullets... but my shadows have a fair number of rounds through them....
 
^^^
Bang on.
Know the max OAL the current bullets allow you for YOUR gun/chamber. The max OAL is unique to your chamber/bullet combo and will change with other bullets or gun. Allow yourself a generous safety margin (several thou) to stay clear from the lands (that is clearly explained in most reloading manuals) and chronograph test loads for the desired velocity. You must know the later to ensure a the minimum Power Factor of 125 to make Minor.

CAUTION: Bullets touching lands and over-crimping are both "DON'Ts" as they may/will dramatically increase pressure. Your crimping just needs to remove the case belling and should only leave a barely noticeable mark (or ring) on the bullets.

Be safe, have fun.
 
Thanks for the advice guys. what are your opinions regarding shorter and longer OAL with adjusted powder measurements for best recoil? less oal with less powder or more oal with more powder for better recoil?

Or is this something Im looking to far into and should find a load that cycles good and holds 135 power factor? I really want to reduce the snap back of the recoil

Also is it good practice to load for the safest yet longest OAL for any pistol?
 
My experience with the Shadow has my Oal at 1.085- 1.095. One consideration, other than chamber spec. is where the bullet sits in the mag with regards to the mag. release cut out. If your OAL is too long, with certain bullets (not sure about Zero's, it's been a long time since I have used them) your mags will not release well.

Different powders are generallly the best way to cut down on precieved recoil, the actual recoil numbers remain consistant.
N310 (Viht, Hirsch Precision has some) seems to be the "hot ticket" locally.
 
Most reloading manuals will advise for bullet seating as close as possible to the lands without touching them and within SAAMI max OAL. My take is establish your SAFE OAL from your MAX OAL and stick to it for that gun.

With the safe OAL variable fixed, then you can determine the powder weight you need based on the velocity achieved by your test loads. If you refer to the IPSC rule book, to achieve a PF of 135, your 124 grain bullets must fly at 1089 fps. Choose the powder load that gives you that velocity and that decision must based on reliable chrony data. Eliminate the potentially dangerous guess work and opinions out of the equation.

"snap back" and "recoil". I believe you are referring to the muzzle flip from follow up shots that removes your aim from the target. Yes, a lighter load will help staying on target, but at the same time you must ensure velocities that always make the minimum PF of 125. A balancing act.

If I may, be very careful with opinions as they can be dangerous or misinformed, referenced data and techniques are much wiser and safer. Just saying because a fellow from my club blew up his .45 glock during a Black Badge course last year. The shooter & 3 bystanders got hit with shrapnels, luckily, no one got badly hurt but a Glock and some pride. The causes were a mix of reloader's inexperience, buddies reloading advices and lack of reloading process checks & controls.

Sorry if I sound like a safety nanny :)
 
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Had a problem this week with Remington UMC and my Shadow.. It failed to feed several times and jammed often..

What I found with this ammo was it was 1.075 and shorter and just was too short for the CZ to feed reliably.

I also noticed that the bullet shape was more ball like instead of conical (that did not help)..and could also cause feeding problems IMHO.

I shot this pistol many times with other ammo AE, Bellor, Lawman etc and never had a problem..

The other ammo was longer closer to the 1.130 OAL and with a conical bullet.
 
Yup.
OAL alone means nothing and that because of bullet ogive.
CZ Shadow is my IPSC pistol and I load all my 9mm to max SAAMI length: 1.169", simply because my bullets ogive allows it. When I used Campro RN, my safe OAL was 1.133, unusually long for that gun.
 
UR2X3M4ME said:
Yup.
OAL alone means nothing and that because of bullet ogive.
CZ Shadow is my IPSC pistol and I load all my 9mm to max SAAMI length: 1.169", simply because my bullets ogive allows it. When I used Campro RN, my safe OAL was 1.133, unusually long for that gun.
Click to expand...

Thanks for confirming my hunch..
 
If it's any help to you, one of my favorite and accurate loads for my Shadow is similar to what you're contemplating:

Range Brass
Federal/Win/CCI primer
124gr Zero JHP
4.0gr Titegroup
1.08" COAL

Making minor PF was never a problem with this load, and I find recoil to be very easy to manage and recover the front sight picture from.
 
CzarNY said:
3.8gr titegroup with OAL 1.075, crimp .375.
Click to expand...

If it helps at all, I have been loading 4.3gr of WW231 under the same bullet to an OAL of 1.085" with no issues. I am shooting them from a G19, but that matters little as it is only a medium load at most.


CzarNY said:
Either way you are still getting Minor but what is the best recipe to get get less recoil and more accuracy?
Click to expand...

Pressure is pressure. If you are using the same powder and bullet weight for your loads you aren't going to notice any measurable difference between your choices. Load to whatever OAL the gun likes for feeding and then set your charge weight to get your desired velocity.


Mark
 
Lots of good info here and there are quite a few more threads specifically about the Shadow and reloading for it. I tried many powders my self and found Clays to be the softest to shoot especialy when combined with CamPro 147gr RN. You will need however several test loads with various amount of powder to see which gives best grouping. That goes for any powder and OAL changes.
 
most load the shadow at 1.100 for a good feeding,chamber is tight on the cz's ,and the mag reflect that. ANGUS HOBDEL load was even shorter than that at 1.090 .

my fav ipsic load for my shadow was 147 zero's fmj over 3.7 of VV320 at 1.100 good for 950FPS which was enough for minor.

never loaded with tightgroup ,so i can't relate. however this powder is a little faster than VV320.....in fact right in between VV320 and VV310.
 
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Berry 124gr RN/RNHB are quite tapered and allow you to load longer OAL's in the CZ. At 1.125" my CZ had an occasional feeding glitch as the shorter OAL had a steeper entry into the chamber. My standard OAL is 1.15" with leade to spare.
 
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