A case for working up loads

cheier

Regular
Rating - 100%
5   0   0
Location
Cochrane, AB
Figured I'd throw some of my experience into the mix.

Just starterd working with AA 2495 powder, mainly because I can't find Varget to save my life right now and I'm saving my current low stock of Varget for other rounds. Basically, this is mainly about my "plinking" loads for 308 Win, which are using Hornady 150 grain FMJBT bullets. I consider them plinking because they are all charged directly from the powder measure, then visually inspected. They aren't generally checked on the scale afterwards. I will use the scale to calibrate the measure and then throw a few loads to see where my tolerances are. It is because of this that I generally pick a load that is generally between the min and the max on the load data, so the margin for error is well within (generally +- 0.5 gn).

Now, this is less about my measuring techniques and more about why you should be starting low and working up. I was using the Accurate powder load data recommendations for the bullet, which stated a min of 41.9 grains and a max of 46.6 grains of AA 2495, with a COAL of 2.735. So I decided that 43 grains of powder was going to be my load. Because it may also be relevant, I am using CCI BR2 primers in my Kel Tec RFB.

I could tell that I was borderline on max loading. I was cratering most of the primers, but some that were on the upper end of the +- were piercing the primers. I have plinking loads that I use 41 grains of Varget for that show no pressure signs. The velocity difference is quite large for the same bullets. I'm getting around 2550 fps with the Varget loaded at 41 grains and over 2700 fps with the 2495 rounds at 43 grains. The Accurate data shows that at max load, they push about 2900 fps. To be honest, I'm not sure how they manage this without blowing primers out of their cases (which I did with one of my cases). Because I'm using mixed brass, most of the cases after resizing stretched anywhere from 0.005" to 0.015".

Moral of the story, start at minimum loads and work up. In my case, I know where this stuff is at for 43 grains, so I plan on backing down to 41 grains, same as Varget. Even data supplied by powder manufacturers can be a little suspect.
 
Cratering and piercing primers isn't always a pressure issue. Enlarged firing pin holes can cause cratering with light loads. Weak hammer/striker springs can cause pierced primers. Check to see if your primers are flattening and compare them to other safe loads if using the same brass and primers. Your message is clear and a good warning though. I like to do a quick pressure work up then a little load development even for plinking loads.
 
Time to stop shooting and find the problem. The gasses escaping from anywhere in the cartridge cause rapid erosion that can ruin firing pins and bolt faces. A weak hammer spring reduces the dwell time that the firing pin sees max pressure on it. The pressure in the case can push the primer indent back out against the spring pressure. This rapid stretching of the metal in opposite directions causes it to fail. The same can be said for excessive FP protrusion. Are you getting pierced primers with other loads too? Have other primers been used with similar or different results?
 
I've mainly been using these BR2 primers. I hadn't noticed an issue until I started testing some hotter loads with 130 grain TSX bullets. I opted to test the AA2495 loaded cartridges afterwards and this is where I noticed more primer cratering and piercing. With my Varget loads, everything seems to be fine. I do recall last week when initially testing the hot 130 grain TSX rounds that I did still fire the Varget loaded rounds afterwards without issue. This included some rapid fire tests to make sure there were no cycling issues. All seemed well.

Just on the KTOG site, found threads with others complaining about getting primer piercings at as much as 2/3rds the way to max loading. I've emailed Kel Tec on the matter. I'll try and do a closer inspection of the bolt later today.

EDIT:

Just pulled the bolt and took the firing pin out. It looks like there is some corrosion on the firing pin inside the bolt. The tip of the pin seems fine. There is some metal blow back, though not much from the bolt itself. The hole seems like it is too open, in that it may have been manufactured that way. The spring is still very stiff. The pin is tapered at a constant pitch for about 2.5", though when I try and put the pin through the hole in the bolt the opposite direction, I can nearly fit a third of it through before it stops. This may be a manufacturing tolerance issue, though some of the hole may have opened as a result of pierced primers. I don't think it would have opened so much.
 
Last edited:
Picking a load and hoping is a waste of your time and money.
If you're getting pierced primers, something else is wrong. That has nothing to do with the powder.
 
I sent Chad at Kel Tec the following list of measurements to confirm whether it is within tolerances.

Base of firing pin to tip of pin: 3.630"
Tip of firing pin to base of taper: 2.561"
Base of taper diameter on firing pin: 0.156"
Diameter of tip of firing pin: 0.072" (just before it rounds off)

The following dimensions are of the firing pin in relation to the bolt:

Diameter of firing pin fully protruded from the bolt face: 0.084"
Length of protrusion from the bolt face: 0.505"

The main concern is that 0.084" can be reasonably assumed to be the diameter of the firing pin hole, which means that the difference between the diameter of the firing pin and the hole is 0.012", which seems to be quite large for something that I would imagine the tolerance being in the low thousandths of an inch.
 
I played with a Kel-Krap SU16 that had an oversized firing pin hole, which Vault blamed for primer piercing.

How did you decide on 43gr as your load? If the value was picked from thin air, the moral of the story is; Don't reload unless you know how to reload. There is more in the manual than recipes.
 
How did you decide on 43gr as your load? If the value was picked from thin air, the moral of the story is; Don't reload unless you know how to reload. There is more in the manual than recipes.

The weight was part way between min loading (41.9 grains) and max loading (46.6 grains). 43 grains was a little above minimum load (1.1 grains above) and below maximum load (3.6 grains). The minimum velocity should be 2630 fps and the maximum is 2924 fps. My measured velocity ranged from 2650 fps and 2730 fps. Of course, their measurements were on a 24" barrel. According to another calculator, the bullet velocity is estimated to be around 2780 with velocities ranging from 2732 to 2831 on an 18" barrel to be at max velocity, so I'm still well within pressure limits of the cartridge.
 
Did you mean 0.0505" FP protrusion? Cause if its half an inch, that there could be yer problem :p
Hopefully Kel-Tec has some answers and will take care of you.
 
Did you mean 0.0505" FP protrusion? Cause if its half an inch, that there could be yer problem :p
Hopefully Kel-Tec has some answers and will take care of you.
The number I gave is not incorrect. It is how far the pin is capable of traveling without a spring to keep it back, and before the taper causes it to not be able to advance further.
 
I will assume total travel. Basically, if you take the bolt, remove the firing pin, take out the spring, then drop the firing pin back in with the bolt face facing down, that is how far the pin protrudes from the bolt face. If the spring is in, there is no protrusion; however, with the spring in, there is no protrusion. only when the hammer strikes the back of the firing pin. To be honest, I think there could be better designs for their firing pin mechanism. I'll give Kel Tec a call in the morning.
 
I never mix brass brands, case capacity varies too much.
I would try a different powder.
If I remember I'll go back through my logbook tomorrow and find you a couple nice loads I found when loading for my RFB. I'll be out shooting all day tomorrow so it won't be till the evening.
Did you adjust the gas system properly for your loads? I don't think overgassing it would cause the problems you're having but I know I never had any issues with my handloads. Pretty sure I was just using regular federal large rifle primers.
 
Sorry, must have taken the pages out of my log book and put them in the box with the RFB when I sold it. Either that or I threw them out.
Regardless, powders I use for 308 are Varget, IMR4895, Benchmark, IMR4320, H4895, H335. All have done a decent job. Just use your reloading books to get a startng point and work up.
 
Back
Top Bottom