A few questions for the skilled handgun shooters here....

CanuckShooter

CanuckShooter

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I have been taking in a lot of info lately from youtube, the internet, and books on handgun technique. I know there there are various schools of thought on each aspect of handgun technique so I thought I would post here to see what the more able and accomplished shooters here use and what works for you. So I'll ask away, working from the gun backwards...

Grip Strength:
There are some who say that a firm grip using a certain push/pull balance is best between your shooting and support hands to get back on target fast by minimizing muzzle flip. Conversely, the guy on youtube (username ShootingCoach) along with some others say to use a more relaxed grip without any push/pull effort whatsoever. He explains it as gripping a greased egg... tight enough so that it doesn't pop out of your hand, but not so tight as to break the shell. He says that it is best to not exert any external forces on the gun that might push it off target should the forces not be in proper balance. In other words.... let the gun do the work for you, no point in fighting it, as it will naturally come right back to the desired point of aim very quickly on it's own (and damn does he do the Mozambique drill fast!).

Arm extension:
Again, two schools of thought keep going back and forth. Assuming you are using an isosceles (or slightly modified isosceles) stance, some say that extended and locked elbows are best, and others say that 'almost' extended, but relaxed elbows are the key. The elbows working as the shocks which absorb the recoil instead of your whole upper body.

Stance:
Assuming again that we are using an isosceles style stance... all seem to agree on feet shoulder width or more apart, but one says neither foot in front of the other, while others say to almost take a forward fighting stance with the heel of the dominant side foot say 1"-2" in front of the toes of the other.

I realize that what works for one may not work for the other. However it is always nice to hear others experiences to maybe relate to (someone who overcame the same problem you are struggling with) and possibly discover a few new tips. I am trying to get better, and any lessons that some have learned that they can pass on may very well save myself as well as others, time, and alot of ammo ($$)! lol


Thanks!
 
OK, here goes, but you should also consider what discipline you are shooting at the time. Bullseye techniques optimize absolute accuracy, where action shooting emphasizes speed, and accuracy to a lesser degree.

Grip Strength
I have never been a fan of the push/pull. The biggest problem is that it is difficult to get it exactly the same every time. Changes in the amount of push/pull will change your point of impact, sometimes significantly. Don't fight yourself or the gun

Arm Extension
Bullseye, arm straight (shooting one handed), sort of locked, but not forced, for max rigidity while stationary, but also typically using less powerful cartridges. One handed shooting is actually more accurate (for practised/experienced shooters) because there are less variables with hand position, interference with the weak hand, body position, etc.

Action shooting, arms straight/slightly bent and definitely not locked, and as you mention, acting a bit like shock absorbers, to get back on target sooner.

Stance
Weak foot slightly in front, because using a two handed grip, your weak hand will be slightly ahead of your strong hand, and your weak shoulder slightly forward. You want your body to line up reasonably straight so there aren't any tense muscles "pulling" you in any direction. That means shoulders square above your hips, and the only way you can do this is by putting your weak foot a bit forward, opposite of the "aggressive" stance described above.

Putting your dominant foot forward automatically puts stress (pull) into your weak arm, although it gives you some natural pus/pull for holding on to your gun, it is a difficult position to get the same every time you shoot. However if you are going for speed over absolute accuracy, then there might be some benefit to it in terms of hanging onto your gun and recovering from recoil, if you can become consistent with it.

All of the above goes back to consistency and the easiest way to achieve that consistency/repeatability. Basically, the more "natural", relaxed and stable your position, the easier it is to consistently repeat that position, and the more accurate you will be.


Any contorted position is difficult to duplicate and as a result your shooting will also not be consistent. Much of the above is from my experience in formal coaching, learning and applying the principles to others and myself.
 
I would say grip that works for you. the worst thing is to try and fight the recoil instead of working with it. The thumbs forward techique is what you want, I found it works the best for me. (My first few months of IPSC,...I tried everything,..the saucer,.the thumb holding down on the strong hand thumb,..the weak arm holding wrist,.etc..etc..) the IPSC grip is the best for semi auto's.

Arms Almost extended,...the relaxed elbows act as shock absorbers,...if you are too rigid, you will transfer the recoil right into your body. The relaxed almost- extended -elbows allows the recoil to dissipate for quicker follow up shots.

Feet shoulder width,...but I tend to start with my strong foot about 6 inches to a foot back,..slightly pointed outward. If I am shooting strong or weak hand only...I try and put that side foot forward. **If you are standing too straight and tall you may get off balanced. For IPSC I start a stage either feet together if I have to move right off the buzzer,...or in a relaxed stance if I start shooting right away.
 
SandRoad said:
OK, here goes, but you should also consider what discipline you are shooting at the time. Bullseye techniques optimize absolute accuracy, where action shooting emphasizes speed, and accuracy to a lesser degree.

Grip Strength
I have never been a fan of the push/pull. The biggest problem is that it is difficult to get it exactly the same every time. Changes in the amount of push/pull will change your point of impact, sometimes significantly. Don't fight yourself or the gun

Arm Extension
Bullseye, arm straight (shooting one handed), sort of locked, but not forced, for max rigidity while stationary, but also typically using less powerful cartridges. One handed shooting is actually more accurate (for practised/experienced shooters) because there are less variables with hand position, interference with the weak hand, body position, etc.

Action shooting, arms straight/slightly bent and definitely not locked, and as you mention, acting a bit like shock absorbers, to get back on target sooner.

Stance
Weak foot slightly in front, because using a two handed grip, your weak hand will be slightly ahead of your strong hand, and your weak shoulder slightly forward. You want your body to line up reasonably straight so there aren't any tense muscles "pulling" you in any direction. That means shoulders square above your hips, and the only way you can do this is by putting your weak foot a bit forward, opposite of the "aggressive" stance described above.

All of the above goes back to consistency and the easiest way to achieve that consistency/repeatability. Basically, the more "natural", relaxed and stable your position, the easier it is to consistently repeat that position, and the more accurate you will be.

Any contorted position is difficult to duplicate and as a result your shots will also not be consistent. Much of the above is from my experience in formal coaching, learning and applying the principles to others and myself.
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I agree 100%,....those are the positions that make shooting more difficult. They suck up time in an action type match.
 
Thanks for the advice guys. I have the IPSC grip/hand placement down pat, I am just still a bit unsure of how much pressure each hand exerts.

So how tight do you grip the gun with your shooting hand? Is the greased egg analogy accurate for you guys? Or do you grip the gun tighter?

What about the support hand? Where should it be exerting pressure and how much? A clamping side to side pressure on the front of the shooting hand?

Man, I have so many questions lol
 
If you haven't already, get a copy of Brian Enos' Practical Shooting Beyond Fundamentals.

He'll explain how you can learn to pay attention to what matters, at the (given) particular time, and how you can learn to know - for you, at that time - what is "best".

Seriously, he is the instructor you want.

Review by Travis Tomasie

I felt as if I was spinning my wheels, a class "B" IPSC competitor with a burning desire to become the next Rob Leatham. I was consuming enormous quantities of ammunition in my quest, never obtaining the results I had expected. Then it happened; while viewing Steel Challenge highlights I noticed a tall fellow step into the shooting box. From surrender he drew and shot two plates in nine-tenths of a second! So calm and relaxed, he could have just as easily been reading a book in the park. It was awe-inspiring to say the least. They said his name was Brian Enos, and I just had to have his book.

It was a mere five months from the time I had procured my copy of "Beyond Fundamentals", to the time I received my USPSA Grand Master classification. From the moment I flipped the cover, I knew this one was special. First there was the Forward, written by the great one himself (worth the price of admission alone). There is no published, instructional material from Robbie that I know of, so this is a rare and truly valuable read. It also reinforces the fact that Brian Enos, the humble author, is not only the sounding board and collaborator of the greatest shooter ever, but also a sparring partner!

Next there was the Preface and Introduction. Here Brian actually suggests an approach to reading his book. To me this was stunningly original, and a revelation. I followed his counsel, never rejecting or accepting what he wrote. I simply read without judgment. I didn't know what "floating the gun" was, but I drove to the range to see if it happened as he had described. I distinctly recall that particular range session; I set up the familiar "El Presidente" exercise, and shot a time that I had previously thought was impossible. It was as if the gun functioned it self along the targets, while I simply observed. Floating the gun? Yes indeed.

Sure, "Beyond Fundamentals" taught me how to do sub-second draws and reloads, but more importantly it introduced me to the "mental" game and the internal environment. Zen and Eastern philosophy took on a whole new persona with Brian's writing. It was no longer a dull and boring subject. On the contrary, it was quite exciting! I began making regular trips to the local book stores, hunting for more on the topic. You see, through Brian I realized a definite correlation between these ideals and enhanced performance. In essence, "Beyond Fundamentals" served as an on-ramp to a highway of knowledge.

Brian Enos is the quintessential student of the game. A kind of E.F. Hutton of the shooting sports. When he speaks, shooters listen. He is that rare individual who is blessed with the gift of not only being able to perform, but to articulate in detail how he, and others, do it. He is a veritable Bodhisattva. A person whose underlying motivation is not fame, fortune, or superiority. Rather, his drive is determining how and why a technique (both internal and external) functions, and then sharing that knowledge with you, so that you may obtain your dreams. You can rest assured that Brian has field-stripped every aspect of the game.

If achieving my goals in the shooting sports is comparable to building a house, "Beyond Fundamentals" is my hammer. I may be able to live without my gun, holster, or reloading press, but I couldn't live without this book. Each time I read it I learn something new. That is the definitive mark of a master piece.

Beyond Fundamentals" taught me how to teach myself. At that point, there are no limits....

Travis Tomasie
U.S. Army professional shooter

http://www.brianenos.com/pages/reviews.html
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RCloud said:
In my experience one hand pistol shooting is never more accurate than two.
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At recreational (typical) skill levels and for action shooting, the vast majority of shooters will definitely do better with two hands.


CanuckShooter said:
Thanks for the advice guys. I have the IPSC grip/hand placement down pat, I am just still a bit unsure of how much pressure each hand exerts.

So how tight do you grip the gun with your shooting hand? Is the greased egg analogy accurate for you guys? Or do you grip the gun tighter?

What about the support hand? Where should it be exerting pressure and how much? A clamping side to side pressure on the front of the shooting hand?

Man, I have so many questions lol
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I grip just firmly enough to keep the pistol from moving in my hands. If you want to learn what is "just enough", then try a pistol with skateboard tape. Too loose a grip will nicely sandpaper the skin off your hands. :redface:

The best is to have even pressure yet still be relaxed so you are not fighting the gun or your muscles. You are not trying to arm wrestle your left hand/arm against your right. No matter how hard you try you are not going to keep the gun from recoiling, what you need to do is to learn how to consistently recover from that recoil. Tensing up your hands/arms, only adds another "factor" that you need to "adjust" to get back on target. As mentioned above, it is because it is very difficult to consistently reproduce any type of partial muscle force (push pull), especially when other things are going on at the same time (like trying to line the gun up for the next shot)

As for "clamping" a good grip will maximize the contact area of both hands on the pistol, especially the ball/palm of your weak hand. This is where a thumb over thumb grip creates an opening where the palm of your weak hand fits in snugly.

The greased egg is an interesting analogy.


Just a note about my above posts. Think of what I have mentioned in terms of general principles rather than absolutes. There will always be adjustments for peoples individual styles that work for them.
 
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I think Sandroad and Maurice have offered some high quality advice, and while I am be no means a skilled handgun shooter, I am just starting to get somewhat comfortable with my action shooting/grip/stance.

Grip, I don't use a push/pull, I have a snug grip similar to the greased egg analogy.

Stance, I don't offset my weak foot by a huge amount, but I do like them slightly wider than shoulder width apart.

Arm extension, locked elbows does not work for me, I have a slight bend which seems to make it easier to acquire the front sight, at least IMO.
 
SandRoad, I have had training and I agree with most of what you said. However, in any tactical training I know of, one hand shooting, strong or off is only done to practice an abnormal situation. All routine shooting is done with two hands. The more of the pistol covered with your hands the steady, more accurate the shot. I am interested in your thoughts as to why you think one handed shooting is better. Thanks
 
RCloud said:
SandRoad, I have had training and I agree with most of what you said. However, in any tactical training I know of, one hand shooting, strong or off is only done to practice an abnormal situation. All routine shooting is done with two hands. The more of the pistol covered with your hands the steady, more accurate the shot. I am interested in your thoughts as to why you think one handed shooting is better. Thanks
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One handed better for high level bullseye shooting, where you have time between shots, not action/tactical shooting.

The vast majority of us are just recreational shooters and haven't developed the muscle tone and muscle balance (you need to exercise opposing muscles and both sides of the body equally), or other skills needed to be really good at one handed bullseye shooting.

Shooting one handed can also be used as an example to demonstrate that to shoot well, you shouldn't be "fighting" with yourself to get and keep your gun on target, such as overdoing push/pull etc. You can think of it as removing one hand and you are no longer fighting with yourself, only the gun.

One handed? At high levels (Olympic etc), a second hand introduces more variables into the shot, including force from the second hand that needs to be balanced, grip, posture, relative position of the hands to the body etc. Shooting well is all about consistency, and removing "variables" from each shot means that there is that much less to "go wrong" with every shot.


Actually, two handed shooting is less to do with steadying before the first shot but recovery and control after the shot, and preparation for the next quick shot.
 
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I do use the push-pull technique and I find it works well for me. On the other hand, you strong hand doesn't exactly "squeeze" the grip hard, as over exerting pressure on the grip would throw the sight off when your trigger finger squeezes the trigger, not to mention probably cause the gun to shake. I find the greesed egg analogy works for the grip (strong) hand, but I exert more pressure forward on the top of the grip near the beavertail and pull back with the support hand fingers on the shooting hand fingers under the trigger guard. Strong hand thumb sits on the safety and over the support hand thumb, which runs down the length of the frame, towards the dust cover and points at the target. If you extend your support hand fingers straight, from this position, you should find them pointing at a 45 degree angle at the ground.

This technique works well for me and new shooters I've had try my pistols have commented on how this works for them.
 
The "push-pull" or isometric tension technique is flawed IMO>

The various techniques describing various proportions of grip pressure between the strong and support hands are equally flawed.... again, IMO...

I believe that the best practice is facing the threat/target squarely with the shoulders, arms fully extended and elbows locked, with a firm 'crush' grip on the pistol (which has been developed through sufficient practice) to be the most consistent, reliable and effective method for engaging targets with a handgun.

You will likely read alot, practice variously, and believe what you will... just like everything else in life.

I expect the 'masters' like TDC and yyyyy to be here any second to correct me.
 
I used to use a relaxed pistol grip and thought a 'gorilla grip' would wreck trigger pulls.

I now use Ayoob's Crush grip with thumb down. The left hand is in a wedge hold where the third finger contacts the trigger guard and the index 'wedges' in front like a cam. This further stabilizes the hold. I found my trigger pull became more consistent...I also use the crease on my finger rather than the joint for more control as well. The thumbs down and the wedge hold initially are VERY uncomfortable but after a month or two you'll find yourself automatically doing it.

Massad Ayoob's crush grip makes sense in that if you are in a real gun fight the adrenaline is going to make you very strong and you won't have that 'light relaxed grip' when you're scared out of your pants. For extremely fine target shooting, the crush grip does introduce a tiny bit of wobble but then it was designed for gunfighting. For mortal recreational shooters like myself it actually does work better even for target shooting!!!
 
Silverado said:
The "push-pull" or isometric tension technique is flawed IMO>

The various techniques describing various proportions of grip pressure between the strong and support hands are equally flawed.... again, IMO...

I believe that the best practice is facing the threat/target squarely with the shoulders, arms fully extended and elbows locked, with a firm 'crush' grip on the pistol (which has been developed through sufficient practice) to be the most consistent, reliable and effective method for engaging targets with a handgun.

You will likely read alot, practice variously, and believe what you will... just like everything else in life.

I expect the 'masters' like TDC and yyyyy to be here any second to correct me.
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"master" is a little rich for my liking but I've been called worse. I'm not sure I would recommend or support a "crush" grip but a very firm grip is desirable. Sight alignment and trigger squeeze are all that is required to make the shot. If you desire rapid follow up shots then ones grip and stance no play a part.

Leading thumbs grip
Firm grip
Centre of the first pad on the trigger
Arms extended but not necessarily locked, don't force the extension.
upper body bent forward slightly(nose over toes)
knees bent
Hips and shoulders square to the target
Support side leg slightly ahead of strong side

This would be the ideal position one would strive to achieve for every shot. Barricade shooting, supine, prone, kneeling would all compromise some portion(s) of the above setup.

TDC
 
I am just trying to build up my skills while stationary at the shooting line.... not worrying about movement yet. That's for later on. I am just starting with the basics.

I am starting at 7 yards, then moving to 17 yards, and then finally to 25 yards. It's a cliche I know, but my ultimate goal right now, is to increase my accuracy, and then build up my speed fast enough to consistently nail the Mozambique Drill. Not my be all end all goal, but for now it's something I find very appealing, and that really drives me to practice. If I achieve that, then of course I will set another goal.

I am going to practice using some of the techniques and advice I have received so far. I'll try the crush grip from the Ayoob book I have, as well as the greased egg. Should be interesting.
 
I am new to this sport too. A guy at the range taught me the push/pull and I shoot with my weak foot out so I am at a 45 degree angle.I can see people cringeing now. I am upset if I miss a 6 inch circle at 25m or a 12 inch at 50. Hitting them while moving is my next objective. whatever makes you happy.
 
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