A mutt...or is it?

[NavyShooter]

Well gents,

Here's what arrived for me today...my initial impressions are pleased, with a couple of reservations.

Opening the larger box, here's what we found. It appears to be repainted, and there's a stack of 4 wooden blocks that were sitting inside with a set of 8 screws (4 pairs) that appear to correspond. Not sure where they go...?

And here's the lady herself. Looks quite nice.

First things you can tell right off, the sling is not original, nor are the scope caps.

The magazine is not serialized to the rifle, nor is the bolt. (Didn't realize the bolt didn't match until it arrived.)

That said, the scope bracked is serialized to the rifle.

Here's a zoom in on the left side of the receiver, the No 4 Mk I marking IS there, just REALLY faint.

Rifle number X33021, with bracket number X33021

Now, here's the question....does the scope match?

I see the lower number as 33021....

The upper number....what do you read it as? I see a 2??31

The serial number on my scope is: 23631....I think it might actually be the Correct scope, and bracket for the rifle....note the screws do not appear to have their heads moved since they were staked in.

A distressing discovery (for me) was this....the proof testing info stamped on the barrel forward of the front sight....is this normal???

The rear sight does not appear to be original/correct. It's not blackened, and the grinding down of the battlesight is too crude.

Anyone know what a "KD" stamp means?

The windage drum on the telescope has been driven past the counter....not sure what that means inside....anyone have any suggestions before I try and crank it back?

Some assorted close up views:

 

[375rum]

Mutt or not I can't say.I can say,nice rifle and it is a T.

 

[#4mk1(T)]

Looks like a Canadian (C-Broad Arrow) marked butt. Does it have the “S-51” stamp?
The rifles serial number should also be stamped on the fore-arm just back of the outer band on the bottom.
The back sight has the correct SM (Singer) mark at least.
Nice looking rifle though.

 

[Gibbs505]

Yes, I can't tell if it is a mutt, but if it is, you can give it to me!!

 

[Ganderite]

Looks kinda heavy to cut down for deer hunting. I would leave it as is or trade it for a nice Savage.

BTW, I happen to have a nice Savage.....


Nice rifle. Would be a star piece in any collection.

 

[John Sukey]

I like mutts! LOL
That stamp on the muzzle will always be there for any military firearm sold on the civillian market in the U.K. They all MUST by law, pass proof again. (even if it was in service the day before) Looks like a Birmingham Nitro proof.

Looks like a very nice rifle. I bet it made your bank balance a lot smaller

 

[HeadDamage]

I thought that the "T" was on the wrist of the rifle where the serial number is? The finish looks a bit odd on the metal to but I can't say that she is not the real deal. Barrel proof marks just mean that it was sold in the UK.

 

[tiriaq]

Yes, the proof on the muzzle was applied after the rifle was sold surplus. The England on the butt socket relates to export requirements at the time. Don't worry about these, you have to expect them.

 

[Pblatzz]

The finish looks to be sand blasted. Very rough, possibley a crude FTR? India?

 

[maple_leaf_eh]

Have you read this posted article? It may answer several questions.

http://enfieldrifles.profusehost.net/ri10c.htm

As for the scope knob, don't force anything! Rifles are easy to fix, but scopes are only fixed by one guy in UK. Yeah! There is only one man in the world doing this kind of work.

The numbers and markings are a bit of a puzzler. Most of them make perfect sense, but the KD on the mount and the replacement number on the wrist make me ponder. Nothing serious, just things that need to be explained.

 

[NavyShooter]

MLE,

I've read your article, and some items seem to follow quite well.

One item that does not is the S51 mark. It's not there.

I do appear to have the "S" stamp as mentioned (and Laidler's book describes what it signified)

I moved the scope knob one click in each direction, and it moves fairly freely. Noteable clicks, so things do not seem frozen inside (good sign) the elevation drum was similarly tested, and put back to where it started at the 200 setting.

I will note that until this evening, I had in my hot grubby little hands, a Sarco Reproduction mount, which I briefly compared against that from the rifle. (I wasn't smart enough to take pics of it though....DOH, and now it's in the mail to someone else!)

The mount exhibits a completely different character to the replica Sarco mount. (Very pleased to note this)

I also did a quick fitting test of the Sarco mount to the pads, and found it to be generally compatible with the original mount. I did NOT tighten it down, as I have no interest in messing up my pads, I just did a light spin onto the rifle to see how it fit.

Now, the replacement number on the wrist....what does that mean again? (I think I recall it from the Armourer's perspective, just not 100% until I go read again.)

I do not have (at this time) access to the "British Sniper" book....I know that my serial number on the scope falls within the 1945 production window, I'm wondering if the rifle does also. Anyone have the book and have the ability to check for me?

Many thanks,

NS

 

[NavyShooter]

Oh,

What does the red "W" mean?????

 

[Gibbs505]

Waterproofing, if I remember correctly

 

[Riflechair]

Gibbs505 is correct

The important part is that the scope mount matches the rifle. Regardless of the scope numbers your optical sight should be true to the axis of the bore. Don't forget that each bracket was hand fitted and zeroed to each rifle by Holland and Holland. Its really important to find No4Mk1T with the matching scope bracket otherwise the chances of having a rifle with an un-zeroable scope are extremely high. With the cost of these rifles its best not to take the chance. This rifle should have the S51 mark on the underside of the stock (as you know). The Cdn buttstock is likely a replacement but you never know for sure. Someone has painted over and fiddles with the transit case. Too bad but hey, gotta deal with the cards yer dealt eh!

Congratulations on this rifle. Looks to me like this M47C never saw the grime of combat. Good to see this rifle has a good home now.

RC

 

[Ganderite]

A camera shop in Toronto took in my scope and cleaned and lubed it. The knobs had seized. They sais the sent it to an old guy who knew the scope. Cost $100 and took about 3 weeks.

 

[bearhunter]

Indian No4 Mk1 T rifles don't follow a lot of the regulations.

They did what they had to do to keep them working. They will also come with Mark I scopes.

Talked to an old fellow that claimed to be an armorer in India. He said it was neccessary to do certain mods as fit because of an extreme shortage of spare parts. He also claimed that India made up and installed their own examples of scope mount brackets as replacements for damaged or unserviceable units.

They also converted some of them to MkI/2 0 configuration and so marked the rifles on the receiver flat.

Another mod, done in shop, was to replace the cap screws, sometimes with whatever was at hand.

Indian MkI T rifles are a crap shoot at the best of times. The one I have is questionable to say the least. The old guy says it's pretty much normal from what he had seen and done to them personally.

Another thing he mentioned was that most, if not all, of their scopes had been refurbished and had their lenses replaced, due to blooming problems encountered with the Mark I scopes.

When I showed him the rifle, he handled it loveingly, started to point out certain features on the rifle and scope mount bracket and give the meaning of some of the Indian markings. He also said that the Indian snipers thought quite highly of the rifles and were loath to part with them.
Supposedly, they would get a rifle issued to them and it stayed with the individual for his term as a sniper.

The rifle is quite accurate and the scope is clear, free and repeatable. It also looks to be well used, other than the bbl, which is almost new. It seems India hadn't any qualms about rebarreling their sniper rifles to keep them in service.

NS, not trying to hijack your thread, just trying to add a little more unsubstantiated information. Such as Indian rifles can and do have so many variables out of spec that almost anything can be encountered, done both by the unit armorers and the individual snipers.

There is little reliable substantiated information regarding Indian No4 MkI T rifles and inquireies to the embassy either go unanswered or are sketchy at best, so anything is possible.

Your rifle is very nice by the way and as far as the bolt is concerned, who knows why, when or where it was replaced. The chances are just as good that it is legitimate or not. I hope you get a lot of fun out of it. It will definitely draw a lot of attention at the range as well and the comments and stories will certainly fly then.

Bearhunter

 

[Gibbs505]

Nice story Bearhunter!

 

[maple_leaf_eh]

Filling in the blanks

The serial number is appropriate for a Mk III and right for your X series M47C rifle. I have a similar rifle, and it has that same smooth but rough textured almost crystaline finish. AFAIK these are ex Canadian Army war stocks sold off in the early 1960's.

There are two numbers on the butt and no S51. Not a problem. Peter Laidler describes (and posts on another forum) that he and his armourer colleagues did what had to be done to keep their T rifles serviceable. He comes across as an absolute stickler for the technical orders. No deviations that weren't part of the bag of tricks taught by skilled master gunsmiths. If the sniper had long arms, they would replace the butt. If the man had a preference for his cheekrest, they would move it around. If the butt got broken, they would take one off the parts rack and fit it on. The two numbers tells me one scope was fitted and then written off. A second scope was installed from shelf stock and carefully collumated into coincidence.

Does the King screw swivel hit the little wire loop? It is supposed to, so the sniper doesn't have to unfoul the sling.

Talking about accessories, your MkII is the preferred No.8 scope container! Score! Does the number match the scope? The No.15 chest looks like the original paint on the inside. The outside has been repainted. So what? There were working rifles. When the rifle and chest was reissued to another unit, why would they have kept the old (confusing) markings?

That bolt mismatch is not as bad as you might think. Somewhere, sometime, someone lost the bolt. There are unmarked and unnumbered bolts out there. Get one, put it in instead of the mismatched number. Do the headspacing so it is safe to fire. If you want to be really honest to the next owner, stamp the word 'replacement' on the hidden side of the handle. You're not deceiving him; you're being respectful.

We don't own these guns, we just take care of them.

 

[eos]

A camera shop in Toronto took in my scope and cleaned and lubed it. The knobs had seized. They sais the sent it to an old guy who knew the scope. Cost $100 and took about 3 weeks.

Which shop? Sounds like a useful place for us.

 

[NavyShooter]

Truly,

Having read up on the No.32 telescope, I would not consider sending mine to anyone but Mr. Laidler.

I understand that he does work through Fultons of Bisley, and I'd more than likely go through that route. (ie, next time I'm in Bisley, bring the optic over with me and get the work done while I'm on the ground.)

MLE, the sling swivel is stopped by the wire loop.

The rough texture/crystalline finish was my greatest, well, concern, I guess....where it made the original markings so hard to read on the receiver side, I was a little concerned that something was being hidden. With the bank account as drained as it is, confirmation that all is well is a GOOD THING.

The telescope case does not match either the rifle or the sight. Alas. It's in good shape though.

The thing I noted as I was "playing" earlier in the day, was the smoothness of the rifle. Bringing it up on aim onto a Figure 12, the cheek weld was PERFECT and so was the sight picture. DAMN. What a good feeling. It felt as natural as my C-7 when I brought it up. (Having fired my C-7 as much as I have, that says something.)

Oh, and the trigger pull....Oh, my, dear, sweet, merciful, bountiful, Lord. It is simply the BEST trigger pull I've ever felt on an Enfield. EVER. PERIOD.

It will be a true joy to take this out and shoot it. (Would have been out today except that the wife popped out a baby this morning....so I was...."busy"....)

NS