A Whole Stack of M14 Questions!
- Thread starter RobAK
- Start date
Winz said:
I didn't know that. So why is it that the Numrich's parts are the exact same part numbers in both the M1A and M14 pages(after clicking on the items on one of the pages, they come up highlighted as having been read on the other as well)? I'm not being sarcastic, it is an honest question, and I see now that the Brownell's site lists them as M1A only
)http://www. e-gunparts.com/productschem.asp?chrMasterModel=2070zM1A%20SPRINGFIELD
http://www. e-gunparts.com/productschem.asp?chrMasterModel=2070zM14
Ok, here is the explanation. Parts made by Springfeild Armory Incorporated (a commercial company that bought the rights to use the name of the original US government facility of the same name) are not made to the same level of quality as original military issue M14 parts. Now, to confuse matters the parts are interchangeable, and a SA Inc. made rifle will even contain SOME refurbished US military M14 parts, but these days, it will mostly be made of commercial reproductions of the original parts. It's not even so much a problem that they aren't "original" or that the won't work, its that for the price they charge you could be buying the real thing. Clear as mud?
RobAK said:I didn't know that. So why is it that the Numrich's parts are the exact same part numbers in both the M1A and M14 pages(after clicking on the items on one of the pages, they come up highlighted as having been read on the other as well)? I'm not being sarcastic, it is an honest question, and I see now that the Brownell's site lists them as M1A only
http://www. e-gunparts.com/productschem.asp?chrMasterModel=2070zM1A%20SPRINGFIELD
http://www. e-gunparts.com/productschem.asp?chrMasterModel=2070zM14
Yes...as JP was touching on the matter..SA Inc often uses the same parts numbering as original government part number coding. The markings are however different as well as their locations at times.
There are a number of members here who would be able to identify your parts in question however...Hungry, Skullboy, GGFB(aka parts hoarder) just to name a few.
Depending on the particular parts, there are different markings to look for. Confusingly, there were many contractors and subcontractors....who may have different markings in addition. Even within the lot of USGI stuff, there are so many versions...
RobAK said:
Lets put this issue to rest once and for all.
The bolt problems talked about in the U.S. refers to the first batch of Norc/Polytech M14s to come into the U.S. in the late 80s. These bolts had lug geometry and hardness issues.Since there is an Import ban on Chinese firearms, the U.S. shooters can not get the newer improved Norcs we get(and they are F*CKIN JEALOUS of our $399.00 M14s!!!!!!!!!
).The Norcs we get in Canada have come a LONG way from those days.
There is NOTHING , repest NOTHING wrong with the stock Norc bolts in the current product Norc M14s. NOTHING!!!!!!!!
All the headspace checking I have done shows a slightly roomy chamber, but nothing unsafe.If you want a plinker to shoot cheap factory ammo with, leave the stock bolt in the rifle.
Now if you want a tack driver, you would want to fit a USGI bolt in the reciever.Not a new USGI bolt, but a USED one.Used bolts are an easier fit and do not require as much lapping/fitting.I have swapped in many USGI bolts over the years and have headspaced the rifles at 1.630" to 1.635", which is within National Match Specs.The 1.630" chamber is TIGHT!!!this is the minimum.1.632" to 1.635" are your usual NM chambering.
I have even had a custom M14 chambered at 1.628" (2 thou crush), and this rifle would out shoot most precsion/sniper rifles.
If you are an M14 Newbie, I DO NOT recomend you attempt a bolt swap on your own.
I have been known to help out local CGNs with this proceedure when my time allows, and I can find a set of headspace gauges to borrow.
BTW, beware of Springfield Armory Inc. bolts.They are NOT USGI bolts, and some S.A. Inc bolts were recalled.The USGI Springfield Armoury and Springfield Armory INC. are TWO different entities.
SKBY.
- Location
- Central Pacific
Since Winz mentioned me I will have to speak up........I agree with Skullboy.
Soft chicom bolts are for the most part a 'urban myth' these days, they are a part of the past.
To add to the SA debate, the origional SA bolts.....I don't recall the part numbers....but all the newer ones are marked with a F-0000000X #....the F apparently means that it is a forged bolt as the origional ones were cast.
GG&FB
Soft chicom bolts are for the most part a 'urban myth' these days, they are a part of the past.
To add to the SA debate, the origional SA bolts.....I don't recall the part numbers....but all the newer ones are marked with a F-0000000X #....the F apparently means that it is a forged bolt as the origional ones were cast.
GG&FB
MasterGunner
Member
- Location
- Machesney Park, IL USA
With reference to National Match sights. Both the M1 NM and M14 NM sights are 1/2 minute per click vice 1 minute per click for the standard rifle. The sight aperture comes equipped with a hood. The hood has an offset hole and is designed to rotate so that you can change the point of impact without having to move the elevation knob.
As noted, the M1 sights are graduated in yards and the M14's are in meters. However, you can interchange the M1 NM rear sight parts with the M14 NM sight parts as an assembly and vice versa. You should not notice a difference.
The front sight blade of both M1 NM and M14 NM is 0.062 inch wide vice 0.090 for the standard sight. The M1 and M14 front sights are not interchangeable.
MG
As noted, the M1 sights are graduated in yards and the M14's are in meters. However, you can interchange the M1 NM rear sight parts with the M14 NM sight parts as an assembly and vice versa. You should not notice a difference.
The front sight blade of both M1 NM and M14 NM is 0.062 inch wide vice 0.090 for the standard sight. The M1 and M14 front sights are not interchangeable.
MG
MasterGunner
Member
- Location
- Machesney Park, IL USA
With reference to National Match sights. Both the M1 NM and M14 NM sights are 1/2 minute per click vice 1 minute per click for the standard rifle. The sight aperture comes equipped with a hood. The hood has an offset hole and is designed to rotate so that you can change the point of impact without having to move the elevation knob.
As noted, the M1 sights are graduated in yards and the M14's are in meters. However, you can interchange the M1 NM rear sight parts with the M14 NM sight parts as an assembly and vice versa. You should not notice a difference.
The front sight blade of both M1 NM and M14 NM is 0.062 inch wide vice 0.090 for the standard sight. The M1 and M14 front sights are not interchangeable.
MG
As noted, the M1 sights are graduated in yards and the M14's are in meters. However, you can interchange the M1 NM rear sight parts with the M14 NM sight parts as an assembly and vice versa. You should not notice a difference.
The front sight blade of both M1 NM and M14 NM is 0.062 inch wide vice 0.090 for the standard sight. The M1 and M14 front sights are not interchangeable.
MG
- Location
- Central Pacific
GI and chi-com bolts are forged (not barstock)......SA Inc are castings (also not barstock)
The only product that is made from barstock (other than repro sites) is the Entreprise Arms receiver, not to be confused with Smith Enterprise Receivers.
All SA inc parts that are repro, trigger housings, gas cylinders and bolts are castings.....I think that the gas locks might be also. All GI parts are hammer forged......except for some some flash hiders, a larg amount were actually milled castings, this was the only part that the US gov't/Springfield Armory would allow to be cast.
GG&FB
The only product that is made from barstock (other than repro sites) is the Entreprise Arms receiver, not to be confused with Smith Enterprise Receivers.
All SA inc parts that are repro, trigger housings, gas cylinders and bolts are castings.....I think that the gas locks might be also. All GI parts are hammer forged......except for some some flash hiders, a larg amount were actually milled castings, this was the only part that the US gov't/Springfield Armory would allow to be cast.
GG&FB
girlsgunsandfastbikes said:
Yeah I was referring only to SA Inc and not USGI nor chinese...
I remember I read something along the lines and found this:
I recall most of the early SA Inc bits being cast and later many being forged but never heard about the barstock bit until I read this above. Never seen any though, so no idea how true it is.
- Location
- Central Pacific
MasterGunner said:
This actually amounts to 1/2 MOA for the elevation, as the NM sites do not use a special elevation knob. So twisting it 180* you will get your 1/2 MOA adjustments.
NM sites do use as stated above a windage knob that amounts to 1/2 MOA adjustments. This is done by using a finer thread pitch for the windage knob to site base contact. So be very aware of what parts you are buying as a NM site part might not work with what you have. I have used hooded NM apertures on standard bases, but I have found that not all bases are cut deep enough to let the hood bottom out, I have not found a consistancy to GI bases.
Winz.....wow.....if it comes from Lee's (aka Different) book......I'd take that as the bible, he has put together the most complete reference guide of M14 parts......(period) So.....I stand corrected......I do have a feeling that the barstock bolts were very limited in production amounts as I have never seen or heard of these 'B' bolts.
GG&FB
girlsgunsandfastbikes said:
The M14 trigger guards and at least some of the operating rod spring guides were stamped. The M14 sear release appears to be cast by the evidence of the sprue. The M14 selector switch was cast. Here's a photo of a casting tree of M14 selector switches at the Springfield Armory National Historic Site (Springfield, MA).
http://www.imageseek.com/m1a/gallery/albums/closeup/casting_tree_1.sized.jpg
- Location
- Central Pacific
Oops....yes I knew about the trigger guards....but the others......I wasn't aware.
Lee I'm glad you show up once and awhile to correct me. !
GG&FB
Lee I'm glad you show up once and awhile to correct me. !
GG&FB
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
RobAK, things that I consider must do:
1) tighten the gas cylinder to the barrel whether using a shim or some other method.
2) Bedding the action and front ferrule so that the metal parts are rock solid in that stock. Absolutely no wiggle.
3) tune the trigger to get a nice crisp let off. PM if interested.
4) load ammo it likes. Benchmark, 155g Amax, CCI BR2/Fed 210M in fireformed Win cases. Haven't found a combo that shoots better. Read my post on handloading for more info. Heed the warnings and you will never have a problem with your handloads.
The springs that I have seen from Norc were BETTER then the many USGI recoil springs. I wouldn't bother changing these until the rifle shows a problem.
Changing the recoil spring guide is one of those maybe things. Rooster33 makes a superb unit but play with the orig first.
If going to a USGI fiberglass stock, keep an eye on the bedding next to your recoil spring guide cross pin. They will work a whole there and that cross pin will keep popping out causing jams. I am think to recommend that metal shim stock be epoxied in place instead of just using bedding. A very big wear area that can jam up your rifle right now.
I have really found no issues with any of the Norc parts. Didn't shoot with the open sights much but they seemed to hold zero and adjust as expected. the NM parts will adjust in smaller increments. Personally, I prefer scopes.
I did some testing with teflon dry lube on the op rod and it really worked well. I use synthetic grease on the bolt and raceways. Good mags and these rifles run with the best.
Jerry
1) tighten the gas cylinder to the barrel whether using a shim or some other method.
2) Bedding the action and front ferrule so that the metal parts are rock solid in that stock. Absolutely no wiggle.
3) tune the trigger to get a nice crisp let off. PM if interested.
4) load ammo it likes. Benchmark, 155g Amax, CCI BR2/Fed 210M in fireformed Win cases. Haven't found a combo that shoots better. Read my post on handloading for more info. Heed the warnings and you will never have a problem with your handloads.
The springs that I have seen from Norc were BETTER then the many USGI recoil springs. I wouldn't bother changing these until the rifle shows a problem.
Changing the recoil spring guide is one of those maybe things. Rooster33 makes a superb unit but play with the orig first.
If going to a USGI fiberglass stock, keep an eye on the bedding next to your recoil spring guide cross pin. They will work a whole there and that cross pin will keep popping out causing jams. I am think to recommend that metal shim stock be epoxied in place instead of just using bedding. A very big wear area that can jam up your rifle right now.
I have really found no issues with any of the Norc parts. Didn't shoot with the open sights much but they seemed to hold zero and adjust as expected. the NM parts will adjust in smaller increments. Personally, I prefer scopes.
I did some testing with teflon dry lube on the op rod and it really worked well. I use synthetic grease on the bolt and raceways. Good mags and these rifles run with the best.
Jerry
