Accurate .223 NR black rifle suggestions?

A

albeaulieu

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Hi all,

I'm a regular on one of the hunting forums and know a bit about hunting rifles and reloading but I know next to nothing about black rifles so I'm here to petition some advice. I apologize in advance for posting a thread that has certainly been covered on here before but I did go pack a dozen pages looking for an old thread and my searches didn't turn up a good match. Besides, I usually find folks are keen to share their advice on a fun topic.

I'm looking for an accurate (MOA or better) non-restricted .223 semi automatic to enhance my range experience and to (hopefully) bag a coyote or two. I have a Remington 700 that I really enjoy shooting but I'm looking to mix it up a bit. I reload for the 700 but the 55 grain pills are a bit expensive so I will probably shoot a mixture of factory and reloads with my new gun. If shotguns are any indication, round count goes up substantially with a semi automatic.

I like the idea of open sights but I will be putting a 3-9 or 4-12 scope on this rifle.

My budget is probably less, but my research has capped out around $2500 for the gun. I prefer to buy used.

My last criteria would be re-saleability. If I have a couple thousand tied up and I find I still prefer the old 700 I'll probably try and get back out of the rifle.

Thanks for your input and a huge thanks to all the veterans. We pay tribute on Remembrance Day but every day we remember the courage and sacrifice of veterans.
 
There is no such thing as a MOA or better semi auto black rifle in Canada. Good accurate semi autos will do 1 to 1.5 with handloads and a good shooter with optics. Most black rifles are generally 2.0 to 3.5 inch groups with factory ammo.

In your price range you set and for the accuracy you want you should look at a Benelli MR1 or HK SL8. Those will meet your criteria best even though they do not shoot MOA.
 
Ebola said:
There is no such thing as a MOA or better semi auto black rifle in Canada. Good accurate semi autos will do 1 to 1.5 with handloads and a good shooter with optics. Most black rifles are generally 2.0 to 3.5 inch groups with factory ammo.
Click to expand...

I always heard the SL8 could do sub MOA with handloads. My Herron Arms ACR conversion was around 1 MOA.
 
There is no such thing as a MOA or better semi auto black rifle.

yes there is, but sadly the AR 15 is restricted.
 
Black rifles are not designed out of the box to be ultra accurate rifles. But at the same time, I think any of them on the market will suit your needs for yote hunting. MOA or sub MOA stock may be a pipe dream esp straight out of the box. Bear in mind also that most of the NR black rifles are quite heavy. The T97 is cheap and not so heavy but good MObarn and not quite MOA.
My advice is to scour the EE and see which customized XCR, SL-8 or what not suits your fancy and pick up a used one. At least you won't lose on depreciation that way. If it's MOA you want, stick to the Rem.
 
Only 4 posts so I will respond believing you don't frequent CGN much. First off, If it hasn't been said yet, welcome to CGN. Second, your right that this has been covered many times in many posts, so I warn you that two things could happen. (A) People are going to harass you about not using the search engine. I don't fret answering the same questions over and over again. I like the social atmosphere. Just as many people would rather give people a hard time and spend more time doing it than answering the questions in the first place. (B) People can get passionate about their views of what is ideal. With that they can attack other's views and become defensive of their own. In short the outcome can become a moderator locking the thread.

Now for some answers and my thoughts for your questions.

You say you want MOA or better for coyotes. That probably is well beyond the accuracy you need for coyotes. MOA might be needed for Crows, or other small critters but a coyote is not a small target. I wanted the most accurate 1 MOA NR semi 223 I could find for Crow hunting. I researched and tested several firearms over 3 years before making my decision. In the end I found that only one NR black rifle could reliably do this. I ended up with the HK SL8. With off the shelf match ammo it shoots 1.5 MOA. With hand loads it shoots 1.0 MOA consistently. I mention consistently because many will claim a rifle shoots X.X MOA based on one or a few groups but omit the 2.0 MOA results every other group. After the HK SL8 I found that a NR Bushmaster ACR and the Benelli MR1 shoot about 1.5 MOA. After that it tends to open up a bit more with other rifles like the XCR 2.5 MOA, Tavor 3 MOA, etc

My pic for the most accurate NR Black rifle in 223 is the HK SL8.

Now I will get some popcorn and watch everyone flame broil me.

Moe
 
canucklehead said:
I always heard the SL8 could do sub MOA with handloads. My Herron Arms ACR conversion was around 1 MOA.
Click to expand...

I have always heard SL8's are good shooters. Better then most. I have seen them shoot well. However I haven't seen any evidence personally at the range or here on CGN about them being 1 MOA or better.

As for your ACR being close to MOA, that is not hard to believe at all in the least considering who did the work and aftermarket barrel itself.
 
A type97 will get you coyottes, but not anything near 1.5" groups. Expect more like 2.5-3" one thing that may peak your interest is a ruger mini-14 target. But, its quite heavy.
 
As you can see the fangs are out early. I welcome all those that doubt the HK SL8 accuracy to come down to Fredericton NB and test my HK SL8 for yourself. I have shot one group bigger than 1 MOA in the last 3 range trips. That's one pulled shot making me shoot one group outside 1 MOA with my hand loads in about the last 25 groups. Better yet I might even travel a bit to demonstrate it's accuracy. My friend recently shot a 0.6 MOA with it, but that is not common. 1 MOA is common and consistent.

Moe
 
Ebola said:
There is no such thing as a MOA or better semi auto black rifle in Canada. Good accurate semi autos will do 1 to 1.5 with handloads and a good shooter with optics. Most black rifles are generally 2.0 to 3.5 inch groups with factory ammo.

In your price range you set and for the accuracy you want you should look at a Benelli MR1 or HK SL8. Those will meet your criteria best even though they do not shoot MOA.
Click to expand...

Still alive said:
Black rifles are not designed out of the box to be ultra accurate rifles. But at the same time, I think any of them on the market will suit your needs for yote hunting. MOA or sub MOA stock may be a pipe dream esp straight out of the box. Bear in mind also that most of the NR black rifles are quite heavy. The T97 is cheap and not so heavy but good MObarn and not quite MOA.
My advice is to scour the EE and see which customized XCR, SL-8 or what not suits your fancy and pick up a used one. At least you won't lose on depreciation that way. If it's MOA you want, stick to the Rem.
Click to expand...

Wrong.

I've owned 2 SL8-4's and both were capable of moa or better with quality ammo. I've also shot Moe's SL8-4 using handloads I had developed for my SL8 and it was very close to moa with those loads. He has done some load development since then and as he said is printing regular sub moa groups.
The SL8 comes with a Lothar Walther barrel and comes from the factory free floated from the forend.
I also own an ACR that I had a 300 Blackout barrel built for that has done just under 0.9 moa with handloads but I haven't shot those enough to say that it will do it every time.
There have also been plenty of guys with ACR's with Herron and Questar 223 non restricted barrels who regularly print sub moa groups.

Suggesting an XCR when the guy is asking for an accurate rifle is like suggesting a guy buy a Hyundai Genesis for racing the 24 hours of LeMans.

The problem most guys have when shooting for accuracy seems that they don't support the rifle correctly, thinking that shooting resting on their elbows and supporting the rifle with their hands is going to result in tight groups. Another problem is that many don't seem to understand the value of quality ammo, many seem to think that American eagle or other bulk FMJ gives an indication of a rifles ability. If you feed it crap it will shoot like crap, Unless you're willing to handload and do plenty of load development or try a few different types and weights of factory ammo that costs over $1 per shot your chances of good groups are low.
My 12.5 inch PWS AR will easily shoot sub moa with Black Hills match 77gr Mod262 but with AE dirty bird it can only do about 2 moa. Ammo makes all the difference.
Even your choice in optic can ruin your group sizes, put on a crappy made in China scope and your chances of repeatable accuracy are low. Spend $1000+ on quality glass and you've just increased your chances exponentially.
 
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cr5 said:
Wrong.

I've owned 2 SL8-4's and both were capable of moa or better with quality ammo. I've also shot Moe's SL8-4 using handloads I had developed for my SL8 and it was very close to moa with those loads. He has done some load development since then and as he said is printing regular sub moa groups.
The SL8 was comes with a Lothar Walther barrel and comes from the factory free floated from the forend.
I also own an ACR that I had a 300 Blackout barrel built for that has done just under 0.9 moa with handloads but I haven't shot those enough to say that it will do it every time.
There have also been plenty of guys with ACR's with Herron and Questar 223 non restricted barrels who regularly print sub moa groups.

Suggesting an XCR when the guy is asking for an accurate rifle is like suggesting a guy buy a Hyundai Genesis for racing the 24 hours of LeMans.
Click to expand...

cr5,
You're just a better shot than me!
Maybe if you bubba'ed the Genesis.... LOL!!
I have no problem with the SL-8 shooting tight groups. Not a fan of the funky stock myself. The XCR was the only rifle that came to mind, been watching the History Channel all day!!
 
Still alive said:
cr5,
You're just a better shot than me!
Maybe if you bubba'ed the Genesis.... LOL!!
I have no problem with the SL-8 shooting tight groups. Not a fan of the funky stock myself. The XCR was the only rifle that came to mind, been watching the History Channel all day!!
Click to expand...

That stock can be swapped out easy enough on the SL8. I have a Hera Arms lower on mine sporting an ACR folder. I had the ACR fixed on it that I picked up from cr5 but since then I made the mistake of letting my wife shoot it and since she is a small girl I had to go with something that could give her a shorter LOP. Something else to keep in mind is you want MOA you need some real glass on top. At least X16. I have a Vortex 6.5x20x44 on mine.

Moe
 
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