Action questions - what am I feeling?

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Jaminous

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Hello all,

I'm looking at putting together a higher end build for a bench gun and field gun and came across something with actions that is throwing me for a bit of a loop in terms of cycling reliability in the field. I don't have enough field time to try out every action to compare this in the real world of course.

When it comes to actions my knowledge had always been based on "if it's sloppy then it will work better in bad conditions" (mud, dust, debris, etc etc). In general when I've visited gunsmiths and tried out different actions, based on what they tell me this pattern seems to hold true.

Here is what I am seeing:

Tried an impact. It's smooth, but has alot of play in the raceway and lock-up motion. Lots of people swear by this. I assume the play is what gives it the cycling capability in all sorts of nasty stuff.

Tried a defiance ruckus (it was just there). Fatter bolt on the one I tried, the raceway had less slop in it. I liked the feel better and it felt tighter. I'm told this will lock up on me in the field and will be less overall accurate of a build.

Went back home to my trusty tikka t3 and cycled it. Tight raceway and bolt, very straight not much slop at all, smooth as tikkas are. In theory this should lock up on me easily? But in the field I've never had a problem while hunting over the past 10 years.

Tried the cadex cdx-30 action. This one throws me because every shop, Smith, and shooter with experience tells me it will work anywhere and clear just about anything. But I also find it the tightest, least sloppy raceway/bolt movement, with a very solid lock up. I like it, but I don't understand how it's is able to deal with clearing better based on the lack of slop I'm feeling.

What am I missing? Why would the tightest, least slop cycling be the one that clears best? (I'm also told there are many better for bench rest/field combo in terms of overall build accuracy such as terminus, defiance, impact). If I'm not having any problems with my t3, and it's the second tightest, surely I'm focusing on the wrong thing here?

Am I overthinking this and realistically not going to see problems while in the field? Worst I've done is get a bit of mud/dirt/ice/snow (I fell in a creek once and splashed it) but I tend to give it a wipe and not try lobbing bullets while posting up in a mud puddle of course...

Thoughts? (Hopefully I haven't used terms incorrectly here to middle things up.)
 
I have experience with a few of the actions you mention in both hunting and match conditions. You're on the right track in thinking that tighter clearance between bolt and raceway generally leads to a less sloppy feel.

Custom actions are one of those things where there probably won't be 1 single action that does everything the best. For example... The impact might not be the tightest, but it also has the lightest bolt lift, and runs in every condition. The Cadex might feel the tightest and run in every condition (no personal experience), but it also has the heaviest bolt lift. Defiance might be the smoothest, but it may lock up in unfavorable conditions. You could get around that by wiping your bolt off regularly, but that becomes a pain.

My personal experience is that an Impact will run in any condition imaginable while other actions are failing. I shot a match a few months ago with 30mph winds blowing fine dirt and dust in every orifice, followed by rain and hail. My impact was getting gritty and tighter on the bolt lift, but it functioned perfectly. I personally saw Curtis and defiance actions lock up and fail in those same conditions.

Lots of it just comes down to personal preference. You will not see an accuracy difference between actions, so it comes down to the feel and feature set you want most.
 
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Jaminous

A tight fitting bolt is the best for accuracy because there is less movement when the chamber is pressurized.

If you think of the bolt as the hammer, and the sudden spike in chamber pressure as the energy that causes the hammer to move, the more swing distance there is (in the form of bolt play) The harder the tap (moment of inertia) will be.

That tap as the bolt hits the receiver contributes to the barrel harmonic. Think of your barrel as a tuning fork and the bolt as what taps it to initiate the sound.

This point speaks to the genius of the Barret MRAD as the bolt is contained inside a plastic sleeve which acts as both a gliding surface for smooth function as well as a softening cushion against the sudden bolt movement under pressure.

Accuracy freaks will have the action re-bored and bolt bushed and ground to fit the receiver perfectly to reduce the moment of inertia.

As with everything in shooting its about balance. If you want to build a bench gun to shoot in pristine conditions and put them in the zeros, then go for it at the expense of reliability in mud grit etc. If running in filth is your thing, then you have to compromise. That does not mean the rifle wont shoot well, it just wont have the potential to shoot extremely well.

As for the Cadex CDX 30, its a great rifle, I have one and like it alot. It is accurate out of the box, but it is not an F Class rifle.

BTW, There is nothing "wrong" with Tikka. They make a real solid action that can serve as a base for a competitive PRS rifle (If you are into that), but if you fell into a lake with it, that sounds like you're more of an outdoorsman and in that case, a fancy rifle likely will provide little practical advantage over a Tikka.
 
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Thank you for the insight into this. I'm starting to understand that my hunting/field use is significantly less demanding in the fact that I can take the time to simply wipe the bolt/clear the raceway if I do get some debris into it. Matches, having a timed component in alot of cases I assume, don't give you that luxury to take your time and have an in-field polishing session. So this makes sense to me now. I assume my t3 would also bind in the match conditions you're talking about.

Now that being said I love the idea of an action that works everywhere and in the mud and still works while shooting very well.

Here's another statement that's been throwing me off: no one (meaning very few) is winning matches with a cadex regularly.

But if the action is irrelevant to accuracy, is this simply because we're not comparing apples to apples? I'm assuming that if someone brought along a cadex action with a custom contour barrel (not their standard barrel) they surely are able to compete head to head (assuming fit and handling is appropriate for that person). Or, put another way, that in the hands of a pro it would be competitive. I'm thinking the reason why we don't see extreme beefy non-rem700 footprint actions is because their customizability is poor and fit to the competitor is more important?
 
Maple57 said:
Jaminous

A tight fitting bolt is the best for accuracy because there is less movement when the chamber is pressurized.

If you think of the bolt as the hammer, and the sudden spike in chamber pressure as the energy that causes the hammer to move, the more swing distance there is (in the form of bolt play) The harder the tap (moment of inertia) will be.

That tap as the bolt hits the receiver contributes to the barrel harmonic. Think of your barrel as a tuning fork and the bolt as what taps it to initiate the sound.

This point speaks to the genius of the Barret MRAD as the bolt is contained inside a plastic sleeve which acts as both a gliding surface for smooth function as well as a softening cushion against the sudden bolt movement under pressure.

Accuracy freaks will have the action re-bored and bolt bushed and ground to fit the receiver perfectly to reduce the moment of inertia.

As with everything in shooting its about balance. If you want to build a bench gun to shoot in pristine conditions and put them in the zeros, then go for it at the expense of reliability in mud grit etc. If running in filth is your thing, then you have to compromise. That does not mean the rifle wont shoot well, it just wont have the potential to shoot extremely well.

As for the Cadex CDX 30, its a great rifle, I have one and like it alot. It is accurate out of the box, but it is not an F Class rifle.
Click to expand...

Thanks for this. I forget about the basics sometimes because I'm constantly sorting through online and in-person anecdotal evidence.

I would like a combination of both things to some degree. I want something that can keep up in a match but also hit the battlefield and keep up there (don't we all?). I don't love the impacts lock up. Maybe I'm crazy or missed some subtlety here while I was playing with the action. I have sort of discarded it as a result, but not completely and I could be convinced to reconsider.

I have been pointed towards a terminus Zeus as an option to tick most of the boxes and offer a fair compromise in between. I haven't tried one. I'm not sure where I can find one to try in the Edmonton area but I suspect they're few and far between.

I don't compete. But eventually I likely will. Lucky for me I am also built in a way where I can comfortably shoulder hold about 18 lbs rifle long enough to hunt with (or just post up/fire off the knee when the time presents itself). So the gun I will build will also be a gun I will hunt with. Bench accuracy (and eventually match reliability) would be more important than weight savings. But more time will be sitting at the bench or in the mountains shooting out to 1500+M on my own time than anything else.

Any insight into my use case and observations made would be helpful in making final choices.
 
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Maple57 said:
BTW, There is nothing "wrong" with Tikka. They make a real solid action that can serve as a base for a competitive PRS rifle (If you are into that), but if you fell into a lake with it, that sounds like you're more of an outdoorsman and in that case, a fancy rifle likely will provide little practical advantage over a Tikka.
Click to expand...

I can appreciate this. I did get lucky with my tikka varmint in that it can shoot under 0.3" at 100m reliably and repeatable with relative ease and my best group was down at 0.18" on a 5-shot (I'm not good enough to shoot lower than .25" regularly. It similarly holds that (1" groups) at 300m. All fine enough for hunting of course but it has its advantages when head-shotting grouse while searching for deer using a 300 win mag.

But now I'd like to shoot for long range and I'd like to hold the same (better please?) accuracy/precision but really reach out some distance (not hunting, I don't think it's ethical to shoot beyond 300-500m on an animal but that's a different discussion).

The bench and target shooting is my main use case. Hunting would be secondary since for every 500 to 1000 shot on paper, I'll have a single shot on a deer...

Maybe I'm asking too much? Maybe the luck factor with the tikka is good enough and I should stick with it? Certainly the cheaper route...

There are some disadvantages for custom reloads etc because of the mag size. Disadvantages with fitting some stocks as well.
 
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OP you are wise beyond your years ( if post count is indicative of years)

good observations you have made
since you are in Edmonton try out a ks arms action from someone at the range

benchrest I am familiar with being the Canadian team captain for 10 years and then shooting for the f-class development team Canada

have had over a dozen BAT action builds in 6ppc, over 5 borden actions for f-class and 1000 yard benchrest

to excel at either sport you cannot have both accuracy and field function to the extremes

choose one and get the best
OR
choose a compromise and just be happy

BAT is my favourite benchgun followed by borden brm for f-class

PRS has different requirements and following

Let me say something true but controversial

Borden actions will never be popular in Canada for PRS
why you ask, welllllllll let me be clear
a well known prs rifle builder uses a few other actions BECAUSE he can only make 200 bucks per action
by getting them from Neerlandia who imports them, also they only get a couple dozen a year

but this AND EVEY OTHER BUILDER OF PRS STYLE GUNS makes 600 per action or more on a bunch of USA type actions
and so they will promote the heck out of them even if they are no better

Now a lot of ISA actions are pretty good and have features that guys either like or not

It is indeed unfortunate that there is not a try out a PRS rifle day or weekend in Canada

I would pay 50 bucks per rifle and then the ammo costs to try out a
Defiance Cadex Impact me so on on a weekend and then I could choose which action and stock I wish to buy or build

I have built f-class and benchguns that I did not care for after spending 5 grand to get them done

just try a few and pick the one you like for now

over time you will develop a feel for,what is BEST in your mind and then build a second rifle to use

worry MRE about components and getting some range time for now

just my thoughts

Jeff
 
Jeff,

Thank you. I am older (fortunately? Unfortunately?) Than my post count would indicate and have been following most of the online forums for many years to varying degrees. I tend to be more of an observer than participant it it was time to get out of my comfort zone to try and tease out some more information.

Your expert opinion and those inputs from Maple and Clocked are exactly what I'm looking for to help bounce ideas and thoughts off of.

Unfortunately I recognize profit and access on actions do affect the recommendations I'm seeing. A tough thing to balance.

I'm in the same boat on paying for a "try it out day". Could really use that.


It's clear that that final conclusion is subjective. In the end it would drive me crazy to have something that's exceptional on the bench and locks up when in the bush on a snowy fall hunting day (I've not experienced this but I can guess how mad I'd be at myself). I would similarly be pretty annoyed with my decision if I decided to compete and also locked up there. I truly am looking for a compromise between the two with a hair or several leaning towards bench work than mud work.
 
Like probably many millions other Canadians my age, I learned to shoot centerfires with former military rifles - hence got used to "bolt slop" - Lee Enfields, P14, m1917, Mauser 96 and 98. Likely influenced commercial designs like Win Model 70 and Remington 700.

Then I got a Schultz and Larsen Model 60 and a buddy got a Weatherby Mark V - bolts look and feel 50% larger diameter than the military ones. And much snugger fit within the bolt raceways. And from ads from 1960's - the S&L and Weatherby priced sort of 3 or 4 times more than Win 70 or Rem 700.

Not real certain which comes first - military stuff - at least in 20th century - needed a LOT of them - so cost to make was always a consideration - apparently the side that showed up with the most stuff usually won. So, then sales kick in, post-war, and maybe convinced us old timers that the "slop" from hurried up machining - was done on purpose - was a "good thing" - for various purported advantages.

So, is possible many opinions based on that experience - I suspect that "new stuff" might start from different place. I doubt that you plan to belly crawl through swamp and expect to emerge from mud while firing - is what those battle rifles were likely subjected to - and they most often worked. I have hunted deer in Saskatchewan since mid 1960's, and I do not ever recall an instance when my bolt action rifle ever got tied up or disabled by the environment that I was in. Perhaps getting windblown fine grit or whatever at places like Nokomis range might occur - I never shot there - I doubt is ever a life-or-death situation - should not actually be an issue to occasionally remove the bolt - wipe it down - wipe out the barrel raceway - does not have to occur in middle of a string for score - I would not think - but was never there to experience that.

Reading older references - USA and British instructions to soldiers - WWI - yes, they were expected to know how to remove bolt, how to dismantle the bolt, how to remove floor plate and follower - to clean out debris, mud, etc. and to stay "in the fight". With their fingers and stuff that they had on them - were not using specialized tools. Part of what it is to operate anything mechanical - need to understand a bit what you the user has to be able to do to keep it functioning, versus when the attention of an "expect" repair person is needed.
 
Potash,

Great points. Historical reference and what's we've been exposed to does make a difference. I grew up in a small town so saw and felt alot of "not sure what it was but it was a gun and it worked". My dad leaned European because the stocks naturally fit him (he's super tall and oddly dimensioned). My first .22 was a cz, but I loved the old Cooey my cousin had too. My first 'real' rifle I bought myself was the tikka. I've seen a wide range though half the time I didn't know what I was working with. Certain action preferences I would 100% agree has to do with being exposed to the older style military slop. Not my preference I think.

And your points make me also further confirm that I'm probably way overthinking it. An awesome exploration of the topic with all of you nonetheless.
 
Jaminous said:
Jeff,

Thank you. I am older (fortunately? Unfortunately?) Than my post count would indicate and have been following most of the online forums for many years to varying degrees. I tend to be more of an observer than participant it it was time to get out of my comfort zone to try and tease out some more information.

Your expert opinion and those inputs from Maple and Clocked are exactly what I'm looking for to help bounce ideas and thoughts off of.

Unfortunately I recognize profit and access on actions do affect the recommendations I'm seeing. A tough thing to balance.

I'm in the same boat on paying for a "try it out day". Could really use that.


It's clear that that final conclusion is subjective. In the end it would drive me crazy to have something that's exceptional on the bench and locks up when in the bush on a snowy fall hunting day (I've not experienced this but I can guess how mad I'd be at myself). I would similarly be pretty annoyed with my decision if I decided to compete and also locked up there. I truly am looking for a compromise between the two with a hair or several leaning towards bench work than mud work.
Click to expand...

"locks up when in bush" - A friend experienced exactly that, but was not from snow - was from the minus 30 C that we thought that we could handle - in and out of vehicle to get warmed up several times that day - at one point, buddy could not open his Remington pump-action rifle - was frozen shut. Out in no-where - he got into warm pick-up and within 2 minutes was able to pump that rifle action open - we were both convinced was frozen condensation that caused that - since we did not try, do not know if firing it would have "broken it loose" or not. Forever, when I was growing up in rural Sask - all the relative's and neighbour's farm houses had the guns in unheated porch - for that reason, I think - the guns were going to work when needed - if it was bitter cold in yard, so was the rifle - did not have condensation issues. Was all break action single or double barrel shotguns, usually single shot bolt action .22 and most often, lever action deer rifles. Semi-Auto actions were not common.
 
Jaminous said:
Here's another statement that's been throwing me off: no one (meaning very few) is winning matches with a cadex regularly.
Click to expand...

Cadex is a production rifle. It is rare to find a guy who wins with a factory rifle, (not unheard of) but that is not because there is something wrong with Cadex. It's more of a thing where guys have competition rifles built to suit a very specific set of specifications that cannot be offered in a production rifle.

Functionally, there is no reason why a guy could not be competitive with a Cadex. It more like at that price point, we don't want to mess with it by customizing.
 
Potashminer said:
"locks up when in bush" - A friend experienced exactly that, but was not from snow - was from the minus 30 C that we thought that we could handle - in and out of vehicle to get warmed up several times that day - at one point, buddy could not open his Remington pump-action rifle - was frozen shut. Out in no-where - he got into warm pick-up and within 2 minutes was able to pump that rifle action open - we were both convinced was frozen condensation that caused that - since we did not try, do not know if firing it would have "broken it loose" or not. Forever, when I was growing up in rural Sask - all the relative's and neighbour's farm houses had the guns in unheated porch - for that reason, I think - the guns were going to work when needed - if it was bitter cold in yard, so was the rifle - did not have condensation issues. Was all break action single or double barrel shotguns, usually single shot bolt action .22 and most often, lever action deer rifles. Semi-Auto actions were not common.
Click to expand...

I can relate to the need for reliability in extreme under other conditions. I floated a river once in search of geese at -4 and essentially half encased my shotgun in ice for little splashes as I paddled. Lucky for me I was smart enough to take the Remington 850 marine with me that time for just such moisture concerns. I didn't get to shoot at anything so I can't be sure it would have worked....I only succeeded in freezing myself but having a peaceful float along a river. Would do it again in a heart beat.
 
OP: check this out for a bit more background into what you’re learning now with Impact actions, etc:

ht tps://precisionrifleblog.com/2018/12/29/custom-rifle-action/

…and always pay attention to Jeff’s posts. He knows a ton about this. :cheers:
 
Honestly, you're overthinking it. The vast majority of custom actions designed to fit in the Rem 700 footprint are more the same than they are different. I only have significant experience with Rem 700s, Defiance Deviant Elite, ARC Nucleus and Stiller Tac 338 but most high end customs intended to be "field" guns (and not benchrest/fclass) will function fine in the conditions you can expect to be in, especially if they are done with a DLC-type coating. Some of them (Defiance) will actually let you spec the clearance for bolt to receiver fit (not tolerances). Some actions (Impact) are specifically known for running in pretty much any conditions. That being said, I highly doubt any hunt will replicate the kind of conditions where guys see actions fail in PRS matches. If you're shooting 100+ rounds/day hunting, well, I dunno, haha. You also have to understand that at the vast majority (probably all) PRS-type matches, competitors have to move with the bolt open/back both on the clock and between stages which pretty much guarantees that whatever crap is blowing around in the air will end up in your action unless you keep your rifle covered (which many do between stages, especially if it's blowing and there is fine dust like a match I was just at in Colorado). Basically pick the action with the features that you like, do some online "due diligence" to ensure there aren't known issues with that action and have at er.

As to your accuracy expectations, if your current Tikka consistently shoots in the 0.3s, well, I wouldn't expect much of an accuracy boost from going full custom (keeping within the realm of a non-benchrest setup) but the barrel and gunsmithing will have more of an effect on accuracy than what action you choose ever will. Despite what posted groups on the internet tend to indicate most people, nevermind most guns, can't consistently shoot better than 3/8". I can't think of many gunsmiths that will even guarantee 3/8" (Insite does, not sure who else?).
 
Really enjoying everyone's input on this -everyone has presented something I've been able to use to help mould my expectations here. I'm becoming more confident in there being 'no one right or wrong answer'.



So....who wants to volunteer their actions for a trial day? ��
 
laker415 said:
If you're shooting .3s with ease as you say, what more are you looking for?
Click to expand...

Sometimes a question like this - getting right back to the start again - really stops and make you pause and ask if we're going the right direction.

Here's where I'm at in the thought process. I'd like to learn to shoot out to 2km. That's the goal I've set for myself. Printing groups all day I'm happy to do, but just ready for the next step now and I suspect I'm going to be a long while learning this part. Hoping to maybe also learn how matches work on a basic level to just get some more experience because I'm curious and like to learn.

The t3 in 300wm is limited in a number of ways. Magazine size is pretty significantly limiting, the 24", 1:11 twist barrel doesn't help things and I generally like the much larger contour barrels anyways. Not to mention the stock isn't a great fit for me, but for hunting and getting by on I can adapt to it and it's really not a problem.

I can fix these things on an individual level. Get a barrel done up, throw it in a chassis I like (cadex field competition works well for me), and just live with single loading I guess. But now I'm $3k-3500 into it anyways. Not far from a proper custom build in exactly the right fitting chassis (MPA matrix), with the countour and twist I'd like to run, with longer mags, heavier bullets, maybe a more appropriate cartridge.

Why? I don't know why anyone strives to shoot better than 1" groups. I don't have any really good reason to shoot out to 2km. It's just a goal set and journey to enjoy.

Also the kicker: I prefer a one-and-done gun. One gun to do it all more or less and then enjoy the challenges that come from that. So I don't mind hunting with much heavier in exchange for better fit and set up at the range. Otherwise I'd just keep the hunting rifle and build a bench only gun.

Guys (and gals), if I'm way off track here and living a dream please let me know. I have a good idea of what I want and this is the part of the journey of getting there. Waste of time and money? Probably. I've wasted more time and money on less productive hobbies.

Lots of people want to sell me guns and equipment. Not lots of people want to tell me like it is...lol! I'm good at overthinking things. Can you tell?
 
185gr vld Berger's is what it does it with. Can I realistically get there to 2km? If so, then I've been grossly misinformed.

Dead seriously, if this is realistic then I've overlooked something along the way and would be happy to push my gun that far.

Upgrade barrel twist to push 215 and 230 bullets and done?
 
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