Action Truing - how important?

Splatter. There is no doubt the Mauser 98 can shoot good groups much like the p14 or p17. However without extensive rework (and then some) they are just not consistent. These are military actions intended to be operated under the worst conditions and are give generous clearances...as a result they are very sloppy, not to mention they have very slow lock times (a point often missed). A novice shooter wouldn’t be able to compete against a novice shooter, shooting a modern bench gun. It takes some skill to deal with slow lock times. Custom action manufacturers go to great pains to improve their action design.

Materials are another consideration. The old military Mauser and Enfield are not in the same class as modern production rifles. Sure you can have them reworked but logistically it doesn't make economic sense.

I don’t recommend to my customers spending good money on the old military actions. To do another check, just ask your question in some of the accuracy forums….benchrest.com, longranghunting.com etc. Many of the accuracy smiths I know, will not touch a military action for any precision work. These actions worked well for their original purpose and for general hunting. One easy check on value is to get some quotes from the various gunsmiths on building you an accurized Mauser capable of competing against custom rifles at 100/200/300 yards. Get a modern stock, trigger (or would one use the original?), barrel, bedding work, trued receiver etc. Then see how much you can get for it on the exchange for sale forum! You may as toss your money in the wastebasket. Don't kid yourself; there are lots of smiths who would love to make money off of you. Just be cautious.

Truing a modern action is generally money better spent but it can be still difficult to recover the funds especially if you sleeve the bolt etc. If want to eliminate as many variables as possible including those occasional flyers......a trued action is a step in the right direction. From there...a custom action.
 
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A few years ago I built an F class rifle in 6.5x284 on a K98 Mauser, for the express purpose of dis spelling the myth that they were not suitable platforms to build an accurate rifle on. Partly to see if there was any truth to the fable and also to challenge my capabilities.
Many people shun the Mausers as being loose or sloppy, hence feel they must be poorly toleranced actions, this is sheer ignorance. True the bolt does slop around when it is not in lock up, but so what, you don't shoot a bolt action rifle with the bolt open. The bolt can lock up just as tight and true as any high price action does. AND that is when it matters, during lock up, when the gun is fired. The lock time issue is relatively easy to fix and is done with many other actions.
Many guys compare an out of the crate military issue Mauser against actions like the 700 Remington, which is compareing apples and oranges.
Many do not stop to think that some of the worlds best sniper rifles, like the Parker Hale that was adopted by the Cdn and British military are exceptionally accurate rifles, and are Mauser actions made in England. True they are not capable of benchrest accuracy, but they still will out perform most sporting rifles.
Not for an instant is the extremely high cost of a custom action warranted to get accuracy, many snob shooters are quick to turn up their nose at someone who is shooting a military based rifle, but it still boils down to how small the group size is that wins matchs.
The downside of building a custom on a military action is resale is hard. I can build up a K98 for far less than buying a Nesika action or the like and other than resale and snob value will shoot as well or better than most people can shoot. I would not recommend the Mauser for benchrest , but for most other target shooting sports, they work just fine.
 
I am right there with ATR. I have built many rifles on P series Enfields and a couple on Mausers (Parker Hale Midland was one). All have shot very well. NONE had any action truing done (factory sporterised). All were assembled well with good quality barrels and true chambers. Some even had the orig WWI barrel just for S&G's.

Are these rifles going to compete in short range BR? Not in your life. however, all were/are capable of 1/4 to 1/2 MOA accuracy which is more then most other LR shooting disciplines require.

What happens when that bolt closes is key to an actions success. The Enfield is one of my favorites due to its size and sheer strength. It can tolerate having a massive barrel hung off the front. Certainly more barrel then would be put on most commercial actions.

It also comes with a very 'custom' feature, a bolt that 'advances' when it locks up. The lugs are angled and like a screw, advance upon closing. This ensures that a very tight lock up is possible and repeatable. This subtle feature is being put into the occasion custom action and marketed as a great benefit.

Triggers for most WWI actions are plentiful and cheap, as are parts to improve the lock time. All this means that you can build very nice varmint/hunting rifles for dirt cheap. [Although with the Stevens being so inexpensive, I wonder the benefit of working with surplus actions anymore.]

They can also work very well where shooter skills take a larger role then mechanical accuracy.

Some of course will poo poo a surplus action just as they would a Savage or Win. Whatever floats your boat. If all you care about is small groups (not microscopic ones), there is much available today that can get you there. Might not be particularly glamourous but bling costs money.

Any rifle has to be consistent under the conditions being used. Doesn't matter the cost or parts. If you don't trust it, it will never shoot. So for some, they will only shoot their best when all the right jam lables are on their rig. Whatever it takes...

Until you can dope conditions better then the rifle can shoot them, most are playing with expensive crutches.

Doesn't that sound a lot like golfers???

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
Are these rifles going to compete in short range BR? Not in your life. however, all were/are capable of 1/4 to 1/2 MOA accuracy which is more then most other LR shooting disciplines require.

What happens when that bolt closes is key to an actions success. Jerry
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Jerry, there was a fellow from the USA that modified (shortened etc....) the Enfield (P1X) actions and did so well enough to actually win in Selkirk Manitoba BR LV and HV class. I’m confident this was also attributed to skill. I never personally saw the actions or what modifications were done, but I don't think it would be too hard to find out. Now this example is a BR one…

This is the exception rather then the rule and it was a modified action. I'm pretty confident by the time you added up his work time and applied some of the hourly rates charged by smiths, it would be an expensive venture and one where cash recovery would be difficult. Afterall we are talking about truing an action which has different levels.

In general, a keen and skilled shooter knowledgeable about the standard military surplus rifles shortcomings will perform better then a novice shooter shooting the same gun. The lock time issue is one which will likely sink the novice. If the two are shooting a modern accurized or custom gun, I confident the aggs will be improved and there is a good chance the novice will match or even beat the expert (shooting conditions being reasonable).

True aggs of .25moa are difficult to achieve especially when applying BR agging standards. Occasional .25moa is exactly that, occasional. If any of your rifles can shoot aggs of .25moa consistently you are one fortunate fellow. Lets face it there are a limited number of people out there who want to be @ BR level precision/consistency but they are out there. Personally, I don't have much spare time so I try to eliminate variables that can be eliminated. Yes there is a price for equipment but there is also a price on time...... I’d sooner buy a used Remington, try it out and then make improvements as required, rather then spend money converting/modifying (machining off Enfield ears, modifying bolt handles, drilling and tapping, bluing…action truing) a military action…. Great make work project for experience and interest but not if your paying a precision smith to do it…

To the best of my knowledge, no bolt-action gun dispenses bullets with the bolt open. I can see how people might get confused with open bolt slop and closed bolt slop. I am confident that in the case of the std. ave. issue military Mauser/Enfield the slop is proportional and still more then on an action of today – with the bolt open or closed. This is only one issue of many that should be considered when it comes to getting the most out of your money. In the early days of BR, military rifles were the norm, only because of the cost and availability. Actions were cheap and labour costs low. You can’t compete with a custom action if one isn’t available. Some people find the Nesika action to be sloppy when fully open for what its worth. The subject of sloppy open bolts normally isn’t a topic of discussion among accuracy smiths since it is implicit that we are talking about closed bolts. However it is good to discuss this point.

I haven't seen one surplus WWII military rifle what wasn't sloppy with the bolt closed but then I haven't seen them all. Tight manufacturing tolerances do not magically appear..... As with any manufacturer, I see no reason why they wouldn't or couldn't produce a run of specialty rifles that are actually true, concentric/square (I am talking about the run of the mill WWII military actions). I suspect it wouldn’t be entirely on standard equipment used to produce these actions. A sound comparison would start with comparing the fabrication drawings and then we still know just because the drawing says .001" total clearance (as an example) doesn't actually guarantee the final product will be produced to that clearance.

Tooling used to produce the original German Mauser and later the Parker Hale can be and likely were improved – fit and finish. I would be tempted to say that the exact tooling used to produce German actions found their way into the UK after WW II. I haven’t done any measurements to compare the two myself, but I would suspect that there is a good and probable chance. I have a fairly old Parker Hale in the shop with the receiver stripper mag cut out on the left receiver rail. If you want receiver flex this is a step in the right direction.. Parker Hale later eliminated this old military feature. Just one example of the obvious refinements that have taken place and I’d bank on it that Parker Hale performed more enhancements in later production years….and for other later applications.

I am confident that the competition stats (particularly the ones which are considered world class with a large number of competitors excluding true WWII (and earlier) military equipment competitions) speak volumes of what works and what the precision shooter prefers. Inherently, most people want to do what they can to achieve the best accuracy they can afford and starting off with an old mil. Spec. receiver is generally a step in the wrong the direction.
 
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###, well put indeed. If you have the skills to compete, you need the gear to do it. But as you said, most can't shoot to the level of a production Savage, let alone a full meal deal Nesika/Hart/custom actioned LR BR rig.

Comments apply to LR as the short range game is definitely an equipment race.

So the first step for me is how do I get a novice into the sport without mortgaging the house? Get them into something that out shoots them (not hard to do). Make it affordable for max. trigger time (no exotic barrel eating wildcats that kick the crap out of you). Make it consistent so they can actually learn something about conditions, shooting and doping. Make it so that they are not fighting their equipment and reliability.

Once they have mastered the basics and gained skills, their interest will generate the funds to move up in equipment and performance. Sort of like starting racing in Civics, then moving to low dollar open wheeled cars, then to really expensive race cars, then hopefully marrying really really rich or getting a national sponsor to go Indy car racing. It is a progression that must occur.

However, because this sport is not insanely expensive, getting into top tier gear is not totally out of reach so the pressure to have the best is there. That will discourage many with lesser budgets and those that don't gain 15000rds of experience after the first day out with their mega dollar super custom match winning jam labeled BR rifle.

By nature, competitors want to win but also human nature to not train to get better. We rely too much on equipment.

So I say, if a shooter can only afford a reliable accurate military or commercial actioned shooter, go for it. Trigger time is trigger time.

Would I suggest someone specifically go out and spend the same money as a full up BR rig based on the above? Of course not and ultimately, the rifle will not be as good.

But as a start, a $500 Savage, Sportco, PH or Enfield special and $1000 budget for quality ammo (and maybe a spare barrel) will do more good then a $1400 rifle and $100 for ammo.

The mechanical difference between a good and great rifle is a couple of inches at 1000yds. The skill to dope a slight wind change could be a foot or more.

Great BR gear allows you the edge of inches (X vs 10) ONCE you have figured out how to hit the scoring ring.

Jerry
 
Excellent posts all, excellent read!!:) One of my most missed, and the rifle I wish I never parted with was a custom done 6.5X55 on a husqvarna action. This thing was a tack driver for a hunting rifle, the barrel was shrouded with a target crown and free floated. Big Bucks......NO!! Big Smiles:D :D :D Absolutely
 
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