adjust HS-6 for 9mm question

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luckey

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hi gurus, need help again. looks like questions will never stop popping up not, not for anshort while at least. :redface:

with campro 9mm 124gr fmj rn, I have been loading up with Hodgdon' data(6.0-6.6) and eventually settled down on 6.2gr as it works well in my p226, mp40 and g22 with 9mm barrel. However, today when I loaded more to test on my new cz75 tactical and ppq m2, whil cz eats it like candy and shot amazingly at 25 meters(relatively to my owm skill level), the recoil was a little too much on ppq m2. so i thought to check other recipes.
in my hornady manual, i found 5.1 to 5.9gr with slower fps. so, is this good data as it's completely different from hodgdon? Anyone ever try to load with 5.x gr?

thanks!
 
As long as it cycles, it should be fine. I'm running 4.7gr for my powder coated cast 147 gr bullets. Note that HS-6 does run a bit dirty on the low end.

Auggie D.
 
It really depends on your particular pistols and the recoil springs you have installed. Factory recoil springs will be fine for most factory loads but of course each pistol, like rifles have loads they prefer.

The one load fits all, especially at maximum volumes, is not a good strategy. This has been a problem for the last fifty years or so that I have been reloading for handguns. Many of the surplus firearms that were available to us back then were as different as night and day even though they had identical designs and chambered rounds of identical configurations. Toggle type firearms were especially prone to breakage when high pressure rounds that were intended for WWII submachine guns were loaded and fired. P38s often had their slide components fly off, P35 Browning type pistols would get bulged barrels (try stripping that down) and often revolvers would get ruptured back straps or burst cylinders. Many of these pistols were made in the first quarter of the 20th century and although perfectly adequate for the ammo of the period they just couldn't stand up to later manufactured ammunition standards. I have seen dozens of pistols from that era and later into the middle of the century with kabooms or broken parts because their owners didn't do enough due diligence as to the strengths of their firearms and used the available factory ammo off the shelf.

The last M96 Mauser broomhandle I picked up was close to a catastrophic failure when I purchased it. All of the recoil springs and firing pin spring were broken/collapsed. The previous owner (online purchase) denied ever firing it. OK, but someone along the line had obviously been shooting the HOT Soviet 7.62x25 ammo out of it until it no longer worked properly. Lucky they didn't wear the thing. A new Wolf spring kit fixed it all and I magnafluxed every part that sustained any recoil forces for cracks so I shot some properly loaded ammo out of it and all seems well.

Newly manufactured firearms are not that much different. They are often manufactured for occasional use only, not sustained and continuous shooting sessions. S&WM39 and 59 series pistols for example. They will handled a few high pressure rounds but a sustained diet will cause them to get very sloppy quickly. That is why the Glocks are such good service pistols. They take a beating for half the price and keep on shooting after many sustained practice sessions then reliably operate on demand during duty regimens.

In this day and age where so many do not do enough due diligence on their firearms and ammo requirements there are issues that occur. When handloaders don't do their due diligence it gets even worse. OP, you aren't the only one to have issues and you certainly won't be the last. Kudos for having the common sensed to know when to back off.
 
Understood what you said. However, my question was to clarify if the Hornady recipe is safe to be used as a starting point for me to start another round of experiment because I have been using Hodgson that is totally different and thus confusing to newbie like me. So, again, my question is that if it's ok to start between 5.1 and 5.9gr hs-6 to reload 124gr for 9mm? Thanks.

bearhunter said:
It really depends on your particular pistols and the recoil springs you have installed. Factory recoil springs will be fine for most factory loads but of course each pistol, like rifles have loads they prefer.

The one load fits all, especially at maximum volumes, is not a good strategy. This has been a problem for the last fifty years or so that I have been reloading for handguns. Many of the surplus firearms that were available to us back then were as different as night and day even though they had identical designs and chambered rounds of identical configurations. Toggle type firearms were especially prone to breakage when high pressure rounds that were intended for WWII submachine guns were loaded and fired. P38s often had their slide components fly off, P35 Browning type pistols would get bulged barrels (try stripping that down) and often revolvers would get ruptured back straps or burst cylinders. Many of these pistols were made in the first quarter of the 20th century and although perfectly adequate for the ammo of the period they just couldn't stand up to later manufactured ammunition standards. I have seen dozens of pistols from that era and later into the middle of the century with kabooms or broken parts because their owners didn't do enough due diligence as to the strengths of their firearms and used the available factory ammo off the shelf.

The last M96 Mauser broomhandle I picked up was close to a catastrophic failure when I purchased it. All of the recoil springs and firing pin spring were broken/collapsed. The previous owner (online purchase) denied ever firing it. OK, but someone along the line had obviously been shooting the HOT Soviet 7.62x25 ammo out of it until it no longer worked properly. Lucky they didn't wear the thing. A new Wolf spring kit fixed it all and I magnafluxed every part that sustained any recoil forces for cracks so I shot some properly loaded ammo out of it and all seems well.

Newly manufactured firearms are not that much different. They are often manufactured for occasional use only, not sustained and continuous shooting sessions. S&WM39 and 59 series pistols for example. They will handled a few high pressure rounds but a sustained diet will cause them to get very sloppy quickly. That is why the Glocks are such good service pistols. They take a beating for half the price and keep on shooting after many sustained practice sessions then reliably operate on demand during duty regimens.

In this day and age where so many do not do enough due diligence on their firearms and ammo requirements there are issues that occur. When handloaders don't do their due diligence it gets even worse. OP, you aren't the only one to have issues and you certainly won't be the last. Kudos for having the common sensed to know when to back off.
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I assume you mean :Hodgdon Powders. Yes? The CanPro are plated bullets not FMJ I believe. That said, I would go with the Hodgdon numbers simply because it is their powder and their manual describes bullets close to what you are shooting. I noted the difference in the charge numbers on their site for the Hornady bullet. I am not familiar with the bullet buit would suggest it being a FMJ - the jacket is a coppper alloy and harder and thicker than the plated bullet you are using. The Hornady would create more friction and a tighter seal in the barrel raising pressure hence the lower charge rates suggested. eg from the manual 5.1 gr creates 33K PSI with the Hornady bullet vs 6.6 gr at 30.7K using a 125 gr LRN. When I shoot plated I stick closely to lead bullet data,

Hope this helps

Bob
 
Thanks Cannuck44. That makes sense. Given the huge felt recoil I got on my new PPQ M2 which is different from all my other 9mm(p226, cz75, mp40 and g22 with 9mm barrels), AND to follow your thought, I am thinking to back down slowly from the hodgdon data, 6.2 currently, in 0.1gr increment, to 6.0 which is the min load in hodgdon data. THEN ONLY IF THINGS DON'T CHANGE MUCH, I then back down to 5.9gr, 5.8gr etc. which is out of hodgdon, and in the hornady data. would this be considered a safe approach for testing? I only read that too Little powder in 9mm is also dangerous, but not sure if this is considered as dangerous as well. Thanks.


Canuck44 said:
I assume you mean :Hodgdon Powders. Yes? The CanPro are plated bullets not FMJ I believe. That said, I would go with the Hodgdon numbers simply because it is their powder and their manual describes bullets close to what you are shooting. I noted the difference in the charge numbers on their site for the Hornady bullet. I am not familiar with the bullet buit would suggest it being a FMJ - the jacket is a coppper alloy and harder and thicker than the plated bullet you are using. The Hornady would create more friction and a tighter seal in the barrel raising pressure hence the lower charge rates suggested. eg from the manual 5.1 gr creates 33K PSI with the Hornady bullet vs 6.6 gr at 30.7K using a 125 gr LRN. When I shoot plated I stick closely to lead bullet data,

Hope this helps

Bob
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I would stick to lead data for the plated bullets. Velocity is not every thing. If you have Chrony look for less than 10 fpa on a Standard Deviation using 10 rounds. Not an absolute but you may find more consistent results using a chronograph. The F! Chrony can be had for under or around $100. Good investment if you reload.

Stick with manual specs ie anywhere between the low and the max with the latter approached carefully and you will be ok. Really low charges can result is stuck bullets which is not something you want to contend with. Other than that not much else can happen. If 6 gr of HS6 won't blow your gun up and it won't 2 - 3 gr is certainly not going to either. Just create a problem if the bullet does get stuck in the barrel. Too, things would get exciting if you then fired another cartridge. Just be careful, stick to manual loads and you will be ok.

Take Care

Bob
 
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Campro bullets can be loaded with FMJ data. Unlike Berry bullets they have 8mils of copper coating. See Campro's site they answer lots of FAQ for their product. Hornady has an interesting way of listing loads. They list charge and velocity for given powders. Would think that they have tested loads before publishing.
The amount of reduction you are talking about is within the margin of error of a lot of scales. Sticking one in the barrel could happen but you would see cycling problems first. That said proceed with caution. Load a few rounds and fire one at a time at 10-15 yds so you can see hits on paper.
I'd be more inclined to review an assortment of load data or work with a different powder and try and hit on a load that works for you in all pistols.
 
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grumpyold said:
Campro bullets can be loaded with FMJ data. Unlike Berry bullets they have 8mils of copper coating. See Campro's site they answer lots of FAQ for their product. Hornady has an interesting way of listing loads. They list charge and velocity for given powders. Would think that they have tested loads before publishing.
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I think his Hornady info came from the Hogdon site. There is a Hornady bullet listed

Bob
 
Thanks Canuk44 and grumpyold again. I think I am getting the information I need from all your replies. just to bring all into one post, I am putting all the tech. info as below to make it clear,

1. the hodgdon data I got was from both the hodgdon web site AND from their 2015 annual reloading manual which has the identical information from the site. they list HS-6 6.0-6.8gr for 124 fmj rn. I current use 6.2gr which is good for all my pistols listed above(p226, mp40, cz75 and g22 with 9mm barrel), except ppq m2 5" which has too much felt recoil.
2. the hornady data is from the 9th edition manual with range 5.1-5.9gr. This is the range I would like to probe ONLY IF 6.0 and 6.1gr HS-6 wouldn't work well with my PPQ M2. ONLY THEN, I would like to try 5.9 and 5.8gr etc.

So, from your replies, the worst could happen would be a round stuck in the barrel, rather than a mushroom explosión. :) , if so, I think I am ok because I always shoot one at a time with a pause in between to see the point of impact. So, it should be safe. Of course, I hope the HS6 6.0gr is the least I need to go for my PPQ, then I don't need to do this.

And, at last, I agree with grumpyold that the campro copper plated is good with FMJ data from all the tests I have done so far with 9mm & 45ACP with both HS-6 and Longshot.
 
If you look in your Hodgdon manual you will see a load for Longshot listed for 124GR BERB. Start 4.8- max 5.8. If you have Longshot you could also consider this data as start load is at 23000psi as opposed to 28200 for HS6, at max load both are right at 32400 and 32500. Just a thought.
 
Thanks. I did try longshot already and have good récipe for 9mm as well, but have to use the 8LB HS-6 I have for something as I already set aside longshot for 45acp and 40S&W. :)
From everything I have tested so far, I might not buy hs6 anymore given there are other powders, including longshot, can do all the calibers(9/40s&w/45acp/44spl/44mag/357mag) I shoot at a cheaper price tag.

grumpyold said:
If you look in your Hodgdon manual you will see a load for Longshot listed for 124GR BERB. Start 4.8- max 5.8. If you have Longshot you could also consider this data as start load is at 23000psi as opposed to 28200 for HS6, at max load both are right at 32400 and 32500. Just a thought.
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I found an old Hodgdon loaders handbook. It shows a max of 6.8gr for HS-6 with a 124gr FMJ. The 5.1 gr will work but will probably be dirty. HS-6 likes to run at the top end. I would load up a dozen and give 'em a whirl.

Auggie D.
 
thanks again. will work my way down from 6.1gr with 0.1gr reduction to see where it will lead me.

Auggie Doggie said:
I found an old Hodgdon loaders handbook. It shows a max of 6.8gr for HS-6 with a 124gr FMJ. The 5.1 gr will work but will probably be dirty. HS-6 likes to run at the top end. I would load up a dozen and give 'em a whirl.

Auggie D.
Click to expand...
 
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