Advice for a serious new collector?

Capt.Canuck

Capt.Canuck

Regular
EE Expired
Rating - 100%
34   0   0
Location
Ottawa, ON
Hello everyone,

I've recently made the decision to begin collecting military firearms. My young son also has a keen interest in all things military, so it is something we have decided to do together.

My interest is historical (I wrote my M.A. thesis on military history) as well as target shooting, something I enjoyed in the past and would like to reconnect with.

I had my FAC years ago when I was in the CDN army reserves, it lapsed, and now my PAL and RPAL paperwork is in processing.

My initial objective is to collect the finest original examples I can of the major bolt action rifles of WWII and WWI.

My budget is flexible. I understand that the best examples will come at a premium and I am fine with that.

I would welcome any advice - here in the thread or via PM - about how to best go about achieving this goal.

TIA.
 
Don't rush a purchase. If something isn't right on a piece, it will bug you. Lol I've done it. So be patient and get the right one first.
 
Start 20 years ago.

Failing that:

1. Research.

2. Buy books (GOOD books) about the arms you're interested in.

3. Pictures. Before you buy ask for pictures. KNOW what you want a photo of (for example, please take a photo of the left side of the receiver, showing the mounting screws, ie below:)

Oct%2008%20140%20(Small).jpg


4. Advice...don't be afraid to ask for help. You can not be an expert on everything...unlike guys on here (smellie for example) who have probably been doing this for twice as many years as I've been on this earth!

5. Don't be afraid to walk away without buying. There are only a few "holy grail one of a kind" guns out there, and the likelyhood that you as a new collector will encounter one is relatively small...keep your eyes open though! If someone's pushing a sale on you REAL hard, there might be a reason....look twice, ask if you can take some photos and "phone a friend"...if they're unwilling, well, maybe you didn't need that rifle anyhow.

Hope that helps a bit. Good luck....it's an addiction.

NS
 
Welcome to the "collector" world. There are still some very nice examples of WWI & WWII rifles available for purchase. As you are aware, some will be breathtakingly expensive. Each to his own taste and interest applies here.

I recently latched on to a WWII German Mauser, all matching and in very nice condition, except for a corroded bore. It suits me fine, and I will keep at the bore, probably next step will be to fire a few rounds of surplus to see if that will shine things up a bit. The nitpickers and snob collectors would run out the door to get away from me, but that leaves me with a wider field, doesn't it?

Have fun. Having your son with you makes it sweeter, indeed.:)
 
CanadianAR said:
Don't rush a purchase. If something isn't right on a piece, it will bug you. Lol I've done it. So be patient and get the right one first.
Click to expand...

Good advice - I have to admit I've already broken that rule. :redface:

I have paid for (and will get delivery of when my PAL comes through) of what I thought was a really interesting 98k. Vendor's description:

Authentic 98k rifle with Erma .22 subcalibre device installed. Mauser manufactured rifle, code 41, 1940 dated, Nazi marked, Waffen Amt 655 with Erma Erfurt .22 subcalibre installed. This is the actual way the rifle was issued for training. VG+ overall condtiion. Original.

It was a significant price, but I found it really compelling so decided to go for it. It was also from a dealer which I believe has a good reputation, so I'm hoping that is some measure of security that the item I'm getting is accurately described.
 
NavyShooter said:
Start 20 years ago.

Failing that:

1. Research.

2. Buy books (GOOD books) about the arms you're interested in.

3. Pictures. Before you buy ask for pictures. KNOW what you want a photo of (for example, please take a photo of the left side of the receiver, showing the mounting screws, ie below:)

Oct%2008%20140%20(Small).jpg


4. Advice...don't be afraid to ask for help. You can not be an expert on everything...unlike guys on here (smellie for example) who have probably been doing this for twice as many years as I've been on this earth!

5. Don't be afraid to walk away without buying. There are only a few "holy grail one of a kind" guns out there, and the likelyhood that you as a new collector will encounter one is relatively small...keep your eyes open though! If someone's pushing a sale on you REAL hard, there might be a reason....look twice, ask if you can take some photos and "phone a friend"...if they're unwilling, well, maybe you didn't need that rifle anyhow.

Hope that helps a bit. Good luck....it's an addiction.

NS
Click to expand...

Great advice, thanks.

Books so far:

The Mosin Nagant Rifle (Terrence W. Lapin)

Standard Catalog of Military Firearms - Collector's Price and Reference guide (Phillip Peterson)

Mauser Military Rifles of the World (Robert Ball)

A Collector's Guide to Military Rifle Disassembly and Reassembly (Mowbray and Puleo)

Bolt Action Military Rifles of the World (Mowbray and Puleo)

Collecting Classic Bolt Action Military Rifles (Paul Scarlata)


Any comments about those titles?
 
kjohn said:
Welcome to the "collector" world. There are still some very nice examples of WWI & WWII rifles available for purchase. As you are aware, some will be breathtakingly expensive. Each to his own taste and interest applies here.

I recently latched on to a WWII German Mauser, all matching and in very nice condition, except for a corroded bore. It suits me fine, and I will keep at the bore, probably next step will be to fire a few rounds of surplus to see if that will shine things up a bit. The nitpickers and snob collectors would run out the door to get away from me, but that leaves me with a wider field, doesn't it?

Have fun. Having your son with you makes it sweeter, indeed.:)
Click to expand...

Agreed John, that's the kind of rifle that would interest me as well.

And yes it's nice to know that the collection I build with my son will hopefully be in our family for many years to come. We took him to Normandy, France two summers ago, and ever since he's been hooked. :)
 
The advice I offer is the advice I received when I first started collecting..

- Don't buy junk
- Mismatched rifles are not OK
- Buy the best condition you can afford
- If you are unsure of whether or not to buy something ask yourself where you are going to find another one.
- Buy the rifle not the story

These things have done me well over the years - of course you could ask 50 different collectors for advice and receive 231 different answers.

Take what others say on board, but at the end of the day its your money/time, make up your own mind.
 
Don't do it. Back off they are mine :D

Joking aside, I don't agree 100% with some of the above posters. Don't be afraid to buy something that doesnt meet your specs 100%. Still keep your eyes open for the one you wnat. You can always sell the 'stop gap' rifle. Let me give you an example.

I am still looking for "my" LE No4. By "my" I mean one that fits all of my specifications. However, until said rifle comes to be at home in my safe I have a perfectly adequate substitute. Since I have obtained the substitute I have been keeping my eyes open for "the" one. I've had three that fit the bill cross my path, but I missed them. (the last one by 1/2 an hour) But, until I finally nail down the one I want, I have my substitute.

Also, when you say "the finest original examples I can of the major bolt action rifles of WWII and WWI" are you refering to just the players, or are you refering to all the rifles of said period. IE the Swedes and Swiss were not in either war, but there are some very fine examples for firearms that were produced by said nations that fit the time period. (m/96, m/38, K11, K31) Plus there is all the variations too. IE Mausers (swedish, turkish, german, brazilian, portugese, spanish etc etc etc)

I guess what I am driving at is that you need to define what you want a lot more. You have a very general idea of what you want, but right now you can't see the forest for all the trees.
 
oh lots of research, and sometimes you take the risk and get a jem for cheap but the research is tom mask shure you don't buy junk thats overpriced :D

next time I'm in ottawa I'll give you a call we can have beer and discuss enfields
 
I must emphasize the importance of building up a library of books of firearms that interest you! I would recommend books that deal with a specific firearm as they will have the best information relating to what you want. While books that cover a variety are good for identifying basic features, they don't always go into great detail. If you want to know you are buying an all-original rifle, you will have to break it down part-by-party, which is why these reference books are essential.
 
I used to "collect" randomly.

Start looking for a shooter first and a collectible later. The shooter will give you a very good idea of how the rifles actually handled, as well as good and bad points.

Keep the collectibles in a separate safe. That way they won't get to many "safe kisses."

The shooters, IMHO are a very important part of the collecting cycle.

I have some safe queens, some still in original wrap. They will stay that way for as long as I own them.

JP gave some good advice, go for the major players first.

There are some super deals on Mosin Nagants, Russian Captures, Italian rifles and some WWI Austrians. The Mausers, especially the RCs hardly ever have matching numbers.

Same goes for the Lee Enfield variations.

If you come across any of them in excellent condition, with matching numbers, pay the premium, the chances of coming across one again are slim to nil.

I have seen some incredible collections that only have a dozen rifles in total. They are very interesting but they've never been used and in some cases the owners have never shot a milsurp. They collect them as investments and because they are interested in their history.

Something to remember, when the myriad of Mosins, flooding our shores are gone, they're gone.

Recently, Johnone related a story from his last trip to Greece. He witnessed the destruction for new in the grease Mannlicher rifles and accessories. I would have cried. He's seen it happen often before so it wasn't such a big deal.

Strange, because Greece has dumped all sorts of WWII firearms they purchased from their allies or got on lend lease. I find it a shame they wouldn't sell off the really valuable stuff. Maybe because they bore the Greek Cross??

Shooters, don't have to be matching.

Some collectors, turn their noses up at the Russian Captures that appeared about 10 years ago. For the life of me, I don't know why??

The modifications done by the Russians, during the FTR process was a viable and historical enterprise. Many of those rifles went all over the world, including South East Asia to arm Communist troops. I doubt, any of their lease rifles were matched or if the recipients cared.

Most of all, buy the best you can afford. If you only want to own the 1 in 1000 special pieces, that's fine but IMHO, you will be missing out on many fine pieces that each has a tale to tell.

Pristine all matching rifles are fine for comparisons but haven't really lived, other than in dark and confined spaces.
 
Collectors Grade Publication Books and other are a priceless investment.
For German rifles, you probably need to import from the US for nice all matching examples.

Decide whether you want a "pure" or "representive" collection. Big difference in price.

Narrow your focus (Carbines, Axis, Allies, Countries, etc.) There are hundreds of variations out there.

Specialize your collection (single maker, all years of production or snipers).

The sky is the limit.

I collected all over and started collecting uninformed. Save your time and money; have a clear focus and do your research and it will be much more rewarding.
 
Sit back and ask yourself where you want to start.

You're Canadian. Do you want rifles with some Canadian involvement? Canadians in WW2 fought in Italy, France and Germany, Low Countries: pretty much what the Stars were for. If it were me, that might be where I would want to start. The Italian ones right now, still are very cheap and you can find some wonderful bargains out there, but you have to know what you are lookng for. At the Brandon Gun Show a month ago, I scored a little beauty for 250: Italian Vetterli-Vitali-Mannlicher 1870/871915. These were Italian 1870 bolt-action 10.35mm single-shots converted to magazine rifles in 1887, converted again to 6.5mm as an emergency measure in World War I, when Italy was on our side. My first military rifle was one of these in horrible condition (I still have it) with an AOI brand in the butt: Africa Orientale Italiana, the Italian East Africa protectorate which lasted, as a country, only 6 years. Poor thing looks like a train ran over it, which is fairly decent shape for an AOI rifle. My recent purchase is one of these, not AOI but shortened a foot, very nice condition, work done at the Royal Italian Rifle Factory at Gardone val Trompia in 1938....... and in the XVIth year of the Refounded Roman Empire. I am very happy with this one.... and it's actually pretty to boot.

Another gun show, picked up an Italian 91/38 6.5mm TS rifle: Truppi Speziali. It is a 1956 factory rebuild to new condition, has had 50 rounds through it since rebuild. Coughd 50 bucks for that one because "everyone knows that Carcanos are junk". Shoots nice, too...... and built in the XXth year of the Refounded Roman Empire.

And possibly the BEST Italian rifle of War Two, the Model 1941. They are not at all common but they ARE out there and they shoot brilliantly and in VERY nice condition they don't usually go for more than 225 or so. Why? "Everybody knows that Carcanos are junk." Any time I can get a true, honest one-minute-of-angle rifle for less than 'parts' price, it comes home with me.

And THEN there are the true rarities, such as the Armaguerra Model 39 which clutters up my vault. It was to have been the new semi-auto rifle of the Refounded Roman Empire and they set up a whole plant in Cremona to build the things. By the time the first rifles were built, they were up to their necks in War Two..... so production was shut down after about 100 rifles and the factory retooled to make Carcano parts. The thing is rare enough that it isn't even in most textbooks.

But, with your background (which is very similar to my own), I think I would start with a Number 4 Lee-Enfield Mark 1 or Mark 1*, made at Long Branch. They were made in Canada and served everywhere. In the European undergrounds of War Two, the Number 4 was known as "the Canadian rifle", so many of them were air-dropped in, especially to Denmark and to France. And they were Canada's front-line rifle until halfway through the 1950s and are STILL in service in the Far North simply because there is nothing else that can take the climate and the abuse.

You have a good start on the books. Make yourself a rule: buy a rifle, buy a book. You will never regret it. And if you are looking for FREE BOOKS, zip over to milsurps dot com, take out a FREE membership and start pillaging and laying waste to their fantastic Military Knowledge Library. Start with "Shoot to Live", which is the best book ever done on shooting military rifles (and it's built around that Number 4 Rifle that you want to get), then their 1944 textbook on world smallarms, then the 1913 Ross Rifle manual and then...... . Well, you get the idea. I just burned 850MB of their books to disc and I'm heading back for another shipload.

And always remember that there are people right HERE (and a few other places) who won't steer you wrong and who welcome questions.

Oh, and one more thing: welcome to the club!
.
 
Do your research, find a theme (what really, really interests you) and stick to it, ie: Canadian Lee Enfields 1939-1950, Canadian Military Hand Guns, German Handguns of the 20th Century, etc. Mine for example is Colt Government Models purchased the Canadian Government in 1914.

dscf7625a.jpg

By lawrence9 at 2011-10-23
 
Lots of great food for thought here gentlemen, much appreciated.

Has another thread like this been stickied somewhere? If not, this might be a good one for new members like me with similar questions.
 
Buy a Mosin Nagant or 3.

They are very inexpensive now and easy to be had.

I agree with the buy the shooter grade first, then look for collectors.

This can be an expensive hobby. Tread lightly.

The guns are the inexpensive part. Shooting them can add up quickly...

I started SKS, Enfield, Garand then Mosin. I refused to pay more than $300 for a Garand. Got my first for $275. Six digit Winchester with a mint Dane barrel.

Anyhow, If I were you, I'd get a Mosin to start.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom