Advice needed on Baikal IZH-43KH

[ENIGMATIC1]

Hey everybody. Earlier this week I got my Baikal IZH-43KH in the mail. So me and the newphew decided to take it out thursday. Shot 50 target loads, and 5 slugs. We were in the shop analyzing it today, and we took off the forestock to find this:

And what you are seeing there is strips of lead, 5 of them to be precise, which were not there before I assembled the gun. The 2 pieces that are just sitting on the barrels are one that fell off, and one that we pulled off.

Somehow, lead is forcing its way out of the barrel of the shotgun, and into the cavity between the barrels and forestock.

Opinions?

Thanks in advance everybody.

 

[Ahsan Ahmed]

] Somehow, lead is forcing its way out of the barrel of the shotgun, and into the cavity between the barrels and forestock.

Opinions?

Thanks in advance everybody.

I suspect those strips are remnants of the weld (bbl joints) that are emerging post hibernation . You may or may not find a few more pieces coming out from that gap between the bbls if you give that a shake. A couple came out of the one that I had. The 43KH is very well constructed, nevertheless.

A thought - next time you are at the range, much appreciate if you could validate how well the rebounding feature works....the hammer if (say accidentally) released during cocking and without pressing the trigger is not supposed to strike the firing pin/discharge the firearm. Thanks.

 

[chestergolf]

Are you sure it's lead? The one sitting on the barrel looks like it has rust on it. They might just be filings from the machining of the firearm.

 

[ENIGMATIC1]

I suspect those strips are remnants of the weld (bbl joints) that are emerging post hibernation . You may or may not find a few more pieces coming out from that gap between the bbls if you give that a shake. A couple came out of the one that I had. The 43KH is very well constructed, nevertheless.

A thought - next time you are at the range, much appreciate if you could validate how well the rebounding feature works....the hammer if (say accidentally) released during cocking and without pressing the trigger is not supposed to strike the firing pin/discharge the firearm. Thanks.

I am almost positive it will not strike the firing pin, as it will not go forward of a certain point without pulling the trigger. But I can for sure test it out

Are you sure it's lead? The one sitting on the barrel looks like it has rust on it. They might just be filings from the machining of the firearm.

Well it won't be steel. I'm not sure what the red stuff is on the one piece, but they have melted blobs on the ends of them. Its soft and bendy. And non magnetic. So its either lead, or aluminum. I find it very coincidental that I fire 5 slugs, get 5 strips of soft bendy material with a melted blob on the end...

 

[yodave]

test fire

Clean your gun real good then go shoot a couple more slugs and see if you get the same strips apearing under the forestock. If you do then all I can say is box it and return for refund

 

[ENIGMATIC1]

Clean your gun real good then go shoot a couple more slugs and see if you get the same strips apearing under the forestock. If you do then all I can say is box it and return for refund

Is it safe to fire the way it is? Or should I do it with some bags over it and a string attached to the trigger? I'm not sure how long it would take a barrel to separate from the chamber when its already squirting lead through the hole.

Also, is it safe to fire without the forestock attached?

Thanks for all the advice everyone.

 

[chestergolf]

Close off the end off the barrels and see if you see any light through it. If it is actually peeling off lead, you should see light were these strips are going through.

 

[ENIGMATIC1]

Close off the end off the barrels and see if you see any light through it. If it is actually peeling off lead, you should see light were these strips are going through.

I don't see any light.

I tried and succeeded at melting the strips with a lighter, so they are definitely lead.

As for the question about the hammers hitting the firing pin without the trigger being pulled, no, they will not hit them. They stop about 1 mm short of hitting the pins if the trigger is not pulled.

Is this thing safe to shoot, or should I shoot it from a distance with a string attached to the trigger, and verify that the material coming out is indeed from the slugs?

There is very little doubt in my mind that it is from anything but the slugs, as it was assembled the day prior by me, and there was no grouping of strips hanging out between the barrels.

 

[Ahsan Ahmed]

Also, is it safe to fire without the forestock attached?

Nope, please do not attempt that. Moreover, there must be some form of warning against such in the user manual.

I don't see any light.

I tried and succeeded at melting the strips with a lighter, so they are definitely lead.

As for the question about the hammers hitting the firing pin without the trigger being pulled, no, they will not hit them. They stop about 1 mm short of hitting the pins if the trigger is not pulled.

Is this thing safe to shoot, or should I shoot it from a distance with a string attached to the trigger, and verify that the material coming out is indeed from the slugs?

There is very little doubt in my mind that it is from anything but the slugs, as it was assembled the day prior by me, and there was no grouping of strips hanging out between the barrels.

I fail to visualize how slug (lead) deposits inside the bbls will penetrate (backwards) and make it's way via the tight receiver tolerances and then make a "u-turn" in order to end up where you see those i.e. at the gap between the bbl joint

I'm positive those are loose pieces of the weld that wasn't cleaned out. Suggest have the gunshop/gunsmith look at the pieces of lead should you not feel completely assured about the firearm.

In fact, you may also come across similar complaints with CZ sxs shotguns. My Bobwhites, all four of those, had tiny rusty pieces of stuff come out from inside the bbl joint via that gap AFTER I've used the firearms.....those did eventually stop coming out after a few boxes of shells. That's one of the shortcoming with lower priced firearms - the overall finesse is just not there.

On the topic of rebounding hammers - I've tested that on empty chambers and those worked fine. However, it did not occur to me to test that feature with live ammo all the while I had the sxs....still regret the decision to trade that in for something else that caught my eye at the itme.

 

[Woodsman]

There isn't anything wrong with your shotgun. Russians aren't that particular and anal about how their firearms leave the factory. As long as the overall appearance is relatively good and functional, out it goes. It just looks like some extra weld that wasn't removed and came loose.

 

[ENIGMATIC1]

Nope, please do not attempt that. Moreover, there must be some form of warning against such in the user manual.

I fail to visualize how slug (lead) deposits inside the bbls will penetrate (backwards) and make it's way via the tight receiver tolerances and then make a "u-turn" in order to end up where you see those i.e. at the gap between the bbl joint

I'm positive those are loose pieces of the weld that wasn't cleaned out. Suggest have the gunshop/gunsmith look at the pieces of lead should you not feel completely assured about the firearm.

In fact, you may also come across similar complaints with CZ sxs shotguns. My Bobwhites, all four of those, had tiny rusty pieces of stuff come out from inside the bbl joint via that gap AFTER I've used the firearms.....those did eventually stop coming out after a few boxes of shells. That's one of the shortcoming with lower priced firearms - the overall finesse is just not there.

On the topic of rebounding hammers - I've tested that on empty chambers and those worked fine. However, it did not occur to me to test that feature with live ammo all the while I had the sxs....still regret the decision to trade that in for something else that caught my eye at the itme.

If it works on an empty chamber, it should work on a loaded chamber

There isn't anything wrong with your shotgun. Russians aren't that particular and anal about how their firearms leave the factory. As long as the overall appearance is relatively good and functional, out it goes. It just looks like some extra weld that wasn't removed and came loose.

The shotgun was electro welded together anyways. There is no welding material used in that, and they would never use lead to weld steel together in a shotgun.

I will fire it again with a slug. We will see.

 

[-JD-]

I'm thinking it's some excess solder that came away from some of the joints around the barrels after you shot it.

 

[Sharptail]

The shotgun was electro welded together anyways. There is no welding material used in that, and they would never use lead to weld steel together in a shotgun.

Enigmatic1, the barrels of your shotgun were joined with soft solder, just like virtually all other SxS's in existence. The barrel walls are too thin to successfully weld. Very few are even brazed, soft solder is the material of choice for the manufacture of SxS barrels.

While it is most likely that you are looking at excess solder from the manufacture of the gun, one other possibility exists. If the barrels have been re-blued by the hot salts method (hot dipping) then those salts will be eating away at the solder and causing it to flake away. No gunsmith worth his title would ever hot dip SxS barrels, but one never knows. The bluing in your photos does not look like the hot dip method, but I cannot tell for sure.

Rest assured that the material you are looking at did not originate from the inside of a shotgun shell.


Sharptail

 

[ENIGMATIC1]

Enigmatic1, the barrels of your shotgun were joined with soft solder, just like virtually all other SxS's in existence. The barrel walls are too thin to successfully weld. Very few are even brazed, soft solder is the material of choice for the manufacture of SxS barrels.

While it is most likely that you are looking at excess solder from the manufacture of the gun, one other possibility exists. If the barrels have been re-blued by the hot salts method (hot dipping) then those salts will be eating away at the solder and causing it to flake away. No gunsmith worth his title would ever hot dip SxS barrels, but one never knows. The bluing in your photos does not look like the hot dip method, but I cannot tell for sure.

Rest assured that the material you are looking at did not originate from the inside of a shotgun shell.

Sharptail

Thanks Sharptail, and all the others who posted. It appears you are right

It appears the sky is not falling. I just took the Baikal out again, pulled those lead strips out first of all, shot a slug out of each barrel. No lead strips.

Warmed it up with 20ish target loads in rapid succession, fired another slug out of each barrel, with no lead strips.

Thanks again guys, guess its a good gun after all!

Oh, two other questions. Is it normal to see a line between the chambers and barrels on a sxs? And is it also normal for the barrels to be welded to the chambers on a sxs?

 

[Sharptail]

Enigmatic1, the line you are seeing is because the barrels are built with monoblock construction. This is a method of construction where the breech end of the barrels and the lumps are machined from one piece of steel. Tubes are then fitted (not welded) into the monoblock and the ribs attached. Many fine guns (eg. Beretta) use monoblock construction.

Other methods use full length barrel tubes and have the lumps dovetailed into place, or have the lumps forged integrally with the tubes (chopperlump construction). This latter method is considered the best by many.

While many shooters consider shotgun barrels to be nothing more than fancy gas pipes, their construction is fascinating, both science and art, and has been studied for hundreds of years.


Sharptail

 

[ENIGMATIC1]

Enigmatic1, the line you are seeing is because the barrels are built with monoblock construction. This is a method of construction where the breech end of the barrels and the lumps are machined from one piece of steel. Tubes are then fitted (not welded) into the monoblock and the ribs attached. Many fine guns (eg. Beretta) use monoblock construction.

Other methods use full length barrel tubes and have the lumps dovetailed into place, or have the lumps forged integrally with the tubes (chopperlump construction). This latter method is considered the best by many.

While many shooters consider shotgun barrels to be nothing more than fancy gas pipes, their construction is fascinating, both science and art, and has been studied for hundreds of years.


Sharptail

Thank you very much Sharptail. This site is absolutely awesome because of the knowledgeable people like you.

Are you sure its not welded though? There are a bunch of pressed in circles around the barrel that look to me like as if it was spot welded.

 

[Sharptail]

The pressed circles are merely a design to disguise the monoblock / barrel tube joint. This idea is used a lot. If you cut and paste the following address into a new browser window, you will see the same approach on a rather glitzy Perazzi (big pic).

http://gunroom.shootingsportsman.com/files/listing/1652/mx8.jpg

The better the workmanship, the less visible the line is. Really good work makes the joint virtually invisible. No one mass producing shotguns wants to go to the expense of hand fitting the tubes, though, so you get a nice little pattern over a visible joint.

The barrels are joined to the monoblock by press fitting, soldering, sometimes silver soldering, and in one case (NCP Products trap gun) with Locktite. Purdey's new sporting U/O threads the barrels in. No welding.

Sharptail

 

[Dmitri]

I just bought the same shotgun 43 kh, didnt get a chance to shoot it yet, how accurate
is it with shot or slug, and can you hunt anything with it, waterfawl maby? , or is it strictly intended for cowboy action...????
i wish it was good for hunting... so small and light....stick it in your back pack/holster....and forget you carying it..

 

[Ahsan Ahmed]

I just bought the same shotgun 43 kh, didnt get a chance to shoot it yet, how accurate
is it with shot or slug, and can you hunt anything with it, waterfawl maby? , or is it strictly intended for cowboy action...????
i wish it was good for hunting... so small and light....stick it in your back pack/holster....and forget you carying it..

I've found the Baikal sxs bbls to be well regulated. The 43KH that I had shot to POA with both birdshot (used Win AA as well as Kent Gamebore, both #7 1/2 loads) + slugs (Challengers) at 25 yards.

The small sxs is excellent as a back-up firearm for use in tight covers when hunting Grouse.....the CYL bbls also facilitate the short range work that is the norm in such situations. Works very well for Woodcock scenarios too.

I imagine the sxs will be equally effective for Controlled Deer out ot 50-60 yards should your firearm print well with slugs. At one time, I also owned a hammerless version of the sxs and had pondered upon installing some form of express sights to use for Deer .

Not practical for Waterfowl unless one may be jump shooting ducks at extremely close range.

I'm thinking of acquiring a CZ Hammer Coach for hunting as that has fixed M/IC.

 

[ENIGMATIC1]

The pressed circles are merely a design to disguise the monoblock / barrel tube joint. This idea is used a lot. If you cut and paste the following address into a new browser window, you will see the same approach on a rather glitzy Perazzi (big pic).

http://gunroom.shootingsportsman.com/files/listing/1652/mx8.jpg

The better the workmanship, the less visible the line is. Really good work makes the joint virtually invisible. No one mass producing shotguns wants to go to the expense of hand fitting the tubes, though, so you get a nice little pattern over a visible joint.

The barrels are joined to the monoblock by press fitting, soldering, sometimes silver soldering, and in one case (NCP Products trap gun) with Locktite. Purdey's new sporting U/O threads the barrels in. No welding.

Sharptail

Good enough for me.

Thanks for all the help Sharptail!