Advice Sought from Those Handloading for a Schultz and Larsen Rifle

South Pender

South Pender

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I’m accumulating materials to begin handloading for my recently-acquired Schultz & Larsen M68DL rifle in 7x61 S&H, and I’d be very interested in hearing the experiences of others handloading for their S&L rifles. The two things that make handloading a S&L a little bit different are the rear locking feature and longer-than-usual throat (or leade). The leade in my 7x61 S&H keeps most bullets anywhere from .07” to .10” from the rifling if the cartridge OAL is kept to a length that will fit the magazine (which is 3.40” long).

I’ve already read several threads on this forum about loading for the 7x61 S&H and have found them helpful, but wanted to focus on the two issues noted above:

(a) accuracy with the long throat coupled with limitations from magazine length (I've read some threads on the general effects of freebore, but wanted to focus on this issue with S&L rifles), and

(b) how many reloads each case will allow before case-head separations. Have you guys shooting the 7x61 S&H in S&L rifles gone to neck-only sizing to reduce the case stretching that results from the rear lockup?
 
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I have a Model 60 in 7x61, and helped another guy get his Model 65 set up. My impression is that you might be making some assumptions. The long free-bore - it is a hunting rifle, not a bench-rest target rifle - perhaps focus on getting minimal run out on your loads, and ensure that you choose bullets as close to the "ball seat" / "freebore" diameter as you can.
Yes, they are rear lockers - do some measuring - I think you will find the bolt diameter is getting close to the lug size on many "regular" rifles - that is not a flimsy piece of metal - it is massive!!! So, I guess would need for you to describe how this head separation actually occurs? Is always a good practice to have your reloads just a snug fit into the chamber - for any style or action. That S&L action was chosen by Roy Weatherby for his first "boomers" - not a commonly known action, but very, very strong. So long as you are not loading to turn your 7x61 into a 7mm Rem Mag, which it is not, no reason to expect shortened case life. Like any belted or rimmed case - much, much better idea to re-size cases to set headspace off the shoulder, rather than rely on the belt or rim.
 
There is also two internally different types of Norma brass ........the latter held more powder re: thinner walls and base web aka...... 7x61 Super
 
mbogo3 said:
There is also two internally different types of Norma brass ........the latter held more powder re: thinner walls and base web aka...... 7x61 Super
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Yes, and it makes quite a dfference in loads. Tread lightly. Incidentally, Summach Arms has Norma 7x61 super brass. Spendy, but its not like you can find it in every gunshop. At least half my cases were made from Herters 264 Win Mag brass. - dan
 
From Ken Waters Pet Loads 139gr Hornady /64.5gr H4831/ S+H brass old style/CCI 250 most accurate load tested. OAL 3.19"/2975fps
160gr Speer /61gr IMR4350/Norma primer/S+H old style brass/2988fps fine all rd accurate load.same AOL as above
 
dan belisle said:
Yes, and it makes quite a dfference in loads. Tread lightly. Incidentally, Summach Arms has Norma 7x61 super brass. Spendy, but its not like you can find it in every gunshop. At least half my cases were made from Herters 264 Win Mag brass. - dan
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That assistance that I mentioned to a friend was turning previously fired Remington brand 7mm Rem Mag brass into 7x61 S&H. Internal case volume came out about half way between the few 7x61 Norma Re brass and the Norma 7x61 Super brass that we had. A curious reloading thing - very important to figure out which brass you have - not all the same!!!

From somewhere, I had read that Phil Sharpe designed the cartridge around 160 grain bullets and IMR 4350 powder. The last factory run of ammo from Norma, we read, used 154 grain bullets. So the loads we worked up for the friend's 7x61 was with IMR 4350 powder and 154 grain Hornady bullets. He took a moose with that rifle and load that fall.

The 7x61 S&H is listed in the Hornady #7 manual - page 376. Says they developed their loads with Norma brass, but do not say which version they used. Has loads listed for Hornady bullets 139 grain, 154 grain, 162 grain and 175 grain. No longer listed in Hornady 9th manual.
 
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Potashminer said:
Yes, they are rear lockers - do some measuring - I think you will find the bolt diameter is getting close to the lug size on many "regular" rifles - that is not a flimsy piece of metal - it is massive!!! So, I guess would need for you to describe how this head separation actually occurs? Is always a good practice to have your reloads just a snug fit into the chamber - for any style or action. That S&L action was chosen by Roy Weatherby for his first "boomers" - not a commonly known action, but very, very strong. So long as you are not loading to turn your 7x61 into a 7mm Rem Mag, which it is not, no reason to expect shortened case life. Like any belted or rimmed case - much, much better idea to re-size cases to set headspace off the shoulder, rather than rely on the belt or rim.
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It's not that the S&L action lacks strength; it is massively strong as you say, and has been lab-tested to 130,000 PSI without action failure. Instead, it is that, with any rifle action with the lugs at the rear (S&L, Sauer 80 and 90, Steyr-Mannlicher, Nikko Golden Eagle, Remington 788), you get some bolt compression (which you don't get with a front-locking action) that results in stretched brass. (Stuart Otteson in his excellent book, The Bolt Action, Vol. 2 explains this well.) The fired cases from a full-house load may, in fact, be too stretched to be chambered easily. Full-length resizing with some shoulder bump lets you rechamber the case, but it will stretch again on the next firing. With several of these cycles--stretch-size back, stretch-size back...--you will get case head separation at a point just ahead of the extractor groove. I've experienced this phenomenon with the rear-locking Sauer 80 and 90, and Colt-Sauer rifles. I was curious as to whether the S&L was perhaps a little less susceptible to the problem than some other rear-locking actions. I was able to lessen the problem with my Sauer rear-lockers by (1) loading to levels well below maximum and (2) neck-only resizing. Of course, these two practices can result in slightly less-than-optimal hunting rounds.
 
My only other "rear locker", that I reloaded for any amount of times, was a Remington 788. It was in 243 Win. Some were pretty healthy loads, it turned out. Do not recall any unusual amount for head separation - because of that "rear locker" thing, I was using a bent wire to check for the internal groove - certainly never had even one let go within the rifle. Probably 5 or more reloads? Maybe have to re-adjust what you consider "optimal hunting rounds" - I took most of my white tail and mule deer with 7x57 - I view even a "moderate" 7x61 load to be a big step up from what I had with the 150 Partitions at 2,800 fps, and they killed what I shot at and hit just fine.

Edit to add - I have read Otteson's explanation. I have also experienced a Remington 700 in 7mm STW that would not re-chamber a brass that had been fired in that rifle. Several things, I think. Could not slide a bullet into the fired brass's mouth - turned out it was a "custom" barrel who's chamber neck area was less than SAAMI standard and the user was using re-sized 8mm Rem Mag brass without thinning the necks. That issue pretty much went away when he got a bag of commercial 7mm STW brass to use. But the brass had been in that chamber after firing - would not go back - did not check at the time, but I now suspect that the bolt face was not perfectly square to the axis of the chamber - so in any other position within the chamber except as when fired, it wouldn't fit, would not let that bolt close on a previously fired case. In this instance, though, I think it took over-pressure loads for those issues to appear. Sure enough, we found an error on the Nosler website - their loads given for 7mm STW with H1000 powder for 175 grain are identical values to those that they post for 160 grain bullets - actually their "start" load listed for 175 grain bullets, which he had used, was higher than the Max load given in their paper manuals.

Led me to sort of think that the makers had a design pressure that they worked from and built their rifles around, and added a "safety factor". Stay within their parameters, and by and large their products work. Pushing the limits into that "safety factor" is where the issues start. If the result is not adequate, then go to a bigger cartridge - 7mm Rem Mag, 7mm Weatherby, 7mm STW - all should be a step up from the 7x61. I had read many of the 7x61 had actually been re-chambered to 7mm Rem Mag - a simple, inexpensive mod, I think, and may even give a higher level of performance - certainly much cheaper ammo!!!!
 
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Potashminer said:
Maybe have to re-adjust what you consider "optimal hunting rounds" - I took most of my white tail and mule deer with 7x57 - I view even a "moderate" 7x61 load to be a big step up from what I had with the 150 Partitions at 2,800 fps, and they killed what I shot at just fine.
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When I mentioned "slightly less-than-optimal hunting rounds" (with the emphasis perhaps on "slightly"), I was referring to the fact that you will give up some velocity with powder "levels well below maximum," (and, in effect, turn your 7x61 S&H into an optimally-loaded .280 Rem.), and your loaded rounds will chamber less easily without having been full-length resized. The general consensus re hunting rounds is to make sure they’re loaded into either unfired brass or full-length resized cases.
 
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South Pender said:
When I mentioned "slightly less-than-optimal hunting rounds" (with the emphasis perhaps on "slightly"), I was referring to the fact that you will give up some velocity with powder "levels well below maximum," (and, in effect, turning your 7x61 S&H into an optimally-loaded .280 Rem.), and your loaded rounds will chamber less easily without having been full-length resized. The general consensus re hunting rounds is to make sure they’re loaded into either unfired brass or full-length resized cases.
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Splitting hairs, perhaps - from that Hornady #7 manual, a 280 Rem (22" barrel) has two powders that get 2,900 fps with 154 grain bullets. The 7x61 (24" barrel) has one powder that goes 3,000 fps. So the two are actually nearly identical to each other, as per Hornady. My old 7x57 has to peddle very hard to get to 2,500 (22" barrel) according to Hornady, but they list 5 powders that will do that with 154 grain bullets. So, either the 280 Rem or the 7x61, using Hornady data, would be a "big step" up for me, from what I know works very well for me, and has done so for at least 20 years. My 7x57 was a No.1 Ruger - was talked into needing a repeating rifle, and a S&L Model 60 showed up on CGN, so I bought it. I have stocked up on 160 grain Accubonds for it - hoping for 2,800 or a bit more from it and we will be good.

And I believe that you are correct - that next round, when hunting, has to go in very slickly - if you missed with your first shot, the second one is not usually an easier shot to make - do not need to be fighting to get it chambered!!! That goes for whether the critter is coming at you, or trying to get away.
 
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You should FL size virgin brass as well as all hunting ammo.If you want reloading data PM me with your full mailing address and I'll photocopy what I have and get it to you.
 
Potashminer said:
Splitting hairs, perhaps - from that Hornady #7 manual, a 280 Rem (22" barrel) has two powders that get 2,900 fps with 154 grain bullets. The 7x61 (24" barrel) has one powder that goes 3,000 fps. So the two are actually nearly identical to each other, as per Hornady. My old 7x57 has to peddle very hard to get to 2,500 (22" barrel) according to Hornady, but they list 5 powders that will do that with 154 grain bullets. So, either the 280 Rem or the 7x61, using Hornady data, would be a "big step" up for me, from what I know works very well for me, and has done so for at least 20 years. My 7x57 was a No.1 Ruger - was talked into needing a repeating rifle, and a S&L Model 60 showed up on CGN, so I bought it. I have stocked up on 160 grain Accubonds for it - hoping for 2,800 or a bit more from it and we will be good.

And I believe that you are correct - that next round, when hunting, has to go in very slickly - if you missed with your first shot, the second one is not usually an easier shot to make - do not need to be fighting to get it chambered!!! That goes for whether the critter is coming at you, or trying to get away.
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3000 fps with 160 gr bullets is claimed in some manuals. I generally run mine around 2900-2950, same as my 7 Rem Mags. Doesnt seem to matter much to the game. - dan
 
I'm trying to resurrect an old beautifully stocked rifle. It is a like new 280 Ross barrel shortened, re-chambered to 7x61 S&H and re-threaded to fit an old GEW 98 action .I already shoot a 280 Remington with horn. 139 gr. bullets at around 3000'/sec. with which I have killed quite a few deer and moose .
The only reason for bringing this old gun back is because of the stock(I'll try to post a picture in Keeper's album) If this project gets too expensive maybe re-chamber or re-barrel .
I had a 300 Winchester Magnum and a 7mm Remington Mag but I traded them off as I couldn't handle the recoil at the bench
What will the recoil be for this rifle set for 3000'/sec? I had to down size my recipe for the 280 Rem. as the recoil was getting a bit much as I mostly shoot from an elevated stand...almost like shooting off of a bench...I likes the comfort.....plus I can see out to 600
 
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the keepa said:
I'm trying to resurrect an old beautifully stocked rifle. It is a like new 280 Ross barrel shortened, re-chambered to 7x61 S&H and re-threaded to fit an old GEW 98 action .I already shoot a 280 Remington with horn. 139 gr. bullets at around 3000'/sec. with which I have killed quite a few deer and moose .
The only reason for bringing this old gun back is because of the stock(I'll try to post a picture in Keeper's album) If this project gets too expensive maybe re-chamber or re-barrel .
I had a 300 Winchester Magnum and a 7mm Remington Mag but I traded them off as I couldn't handle the recoil at the bench
What will the recoil be for this rifle set for 3000'/sec? I had to down size my recipe for the 280 Rem. as the recoil was getting a bit much as I mostly shoot from an elevated stand...almost like shooting off of a bench...I likes the comfort.....plus I can see out to 600
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A little less than a 7 Rem Mag with equal bullet weights, or a 30-06 with 180 gr bullets, if that works as a better reference for you. - dan
 
Thanks for the help..I used a 30-06 for years then switched to a 270 then went to a 280 Remington as my go to gun ....so I should be able to handle the 7x61 especially since I'm going to install a Limbsaver recoil pad
 
the keepa said:
I'm trying to resurrect an old beautifully stocked rifle. It is a like new 280 Ross barrel shortened, re-chambered to 7x61 S&H and re-threaded to fit an old GEW 98 action .I already shoot a 280 Remington with horn. 139 gr. bullets at around 3000'/sec. with which I have killed quite a few deer and moose .
The only reason for bringing this old gun back is because of the stock(I'll try to post a picture in Keeper's album) If this project gets too expensive maybe re-chamber or re-barrel .
I had a 300 Winchester Magnum and a 7mm Remington Mag but I traded them off as I couldn't handle the recoil at the bench
What will the recoil be for this rifle set for 3000'/sec? I had to down size my recipe for the 280 Rem. as the recoil was getting a bit much as I mostly shoot from an elevated stand...almost like shooting off of a bench...I likes the comfort.....plus I can see out to 600
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Just a note about the 280 Ross. The bore on these is .287, not .284 like a 7 mag or 280 Rem.
I have a couple original M10 Ross rifles and have tried the 175 grain Hornady RN (.284) bullets in them. One of my rifles shoots the Hornady .284 bullets OK. Another will keyhole at 50 yards.
Tradeex has 160 gr Woodleigh bullets designed for the 275 H+H Mag and they are .287 diameter. They are the bullets to use in a 280 Ross.

Good luck with your project rifle. If you find it doesnt shoot well, try slugging the bore and determine if the .287 bullets would be appropriate.
 
I have handloaded for 7 different S&L rifles. I have never noticed any case stretching & I have never had a case head separation with ammo for S&L rifles. I do not buy the theory of bolt compression because of rear (actually mid mounted) locking lugs. The bolt cannot flex in a S&L rifle - look at the thickness of the receiver walls compared to a Rem 700. Also the relatively small ejection port stiffens the action, much like the old-timers did when sleeveing an action for stiffness in their benchrest rifles. Also look at the diameter of a S&L bolt - usually bigger than the lugs on most front lug guns. So how about "lug compression" on other guns. I have seen others post about shortened case life in S&L rifles. I call BS, and not based on actual experience. I have been shooting S&L rifles for over 40 yrs and should have seen evidence of this theoretical shorten case life by now. Just my opinion.
 
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